Not one AWAK in 125,000 hands and counting

[spxChrome]

To clarify yes this is single line $1. 70% on 9/6 DDB with a 2/3 progressive, 15% of 9/7 TDB and the rest is on a 10/6 non progressive DDB machine and yes I play as close to perfect play as possible.

I know this is going to sound crazy but the machines we play on are the older style machines. I don't think anything illegal is going on but I think the chip makers have exposed a loophole in regulations that allows them to add a 2nd protocol. This is were I am going to sound crazy. But I can recall on several occasions when I am dealt say A,A,10,3,6. I hold the 2 aces and the third one pops up and then the machines freezes for just a milli-second (it appears like the 4th ace was in the stack and the machines tosses it and pulls a replacement card).

Now I know it sounds crazy but these machines are old, run a little slower and when you are in a playing groove of hours of playing you notice things like this. I am not talking about the memory dump delay that most machines expierence from time to time between hands. I am talking about this specific hand only. I have never noticed it on any other pair cards, on garbage pairs the 3rd and 4th cards come out clean. Only when 2 aces are dealt and the 3 one comes out on the draw do I notice it. And it does not do it every time I get 2 dealt aces and a 3rd one pop ups (im guessing cause the RNG did not pick the 4th ace so it doesn't hiccup because it doesn't have to go back for a replacement card) But in the case when it does the machine will for sure act like it tosses that 4th ace and pulls another card. I would say I have noticed this around a dozen times over the 125,000 hands. And never on 3 dealt aces because that delay already exists between the discard and draw so its not noticeable if it happens then also. Only on 2 dealt aces because you have that extra card to come and will notice the hiccup on card 4 and 5 because the 3rd card came out clean.

I know it sounds crazy but I swear I'm not just making it up I have noticed it enough to know when it happens. I don't even look for it to happen, I just notice it and lookup and see it happend on a hand where 2 dealt aces with a 3rd but no 4th came up when it happened.

Either way I might be nuts or looking for an excuse but the fact remains I have not had AWAK in 125,000. And it's not just me, like I said there are other people who play as much as I do and they have the same results.

[DaBurglar]

spxchrome....nothing you say sounds "crazy", although you have the same problem i do in that this plausible theory of yours, based on your diligent and keen observance (which you are to be commended for) lacks definitve proof.....I have several plausible working theories on what exactly is transpiring in today's video poker machines in places like AC, in order to explain the undeniable fact that players IN GENERAL (there are always exceptions to every trend or rule) are finding it much harder to  simply break even, let alone win, playing today's games and machines, and the simplistic "it is the lower paytables" just does not cut it.......something in the way today's games operate is happening that was not there 10 years (or more) before......as I said earlier, I believe 2011 was the definitive "tipping point" in AC for me where the games went from merely being "Difficult" to break even with to downright IMPOSSIBLE in the most extreme sense of the word!Re-seeding, faster chip randomization, etc  just does not cut it either.....just as with SLOT MACHINES back in the early 2000s, where the "VIRTUAL REEL" was added thus enabling casinos to offer games with MORE than 3 reels (and thus making it even MORE absurdly difficult for players to hit large jackpots on slots, allowing for the ridiculous number of "1 cent" denom games that take 250 or 300 credits (2-3 bucks) a spin), i believe something similar has been done with video poker games......don't know exactly what, but it is something.   Like you, I know this sounds absurd, but it is the only logical conclusion, given the results a player consistently sees these days.    As I have shared and documented over the years here, since 1992 I have seen and heard second hand (and third and fourth hand too) many stories and accounts from other players I have known, other employees and executives (past & present) in casinos I have known, and certainly from other friends who either play or know things themselves......This is the same with everyone else here; we all have seen, heard and learned stuff over time.    And I can definitely state that I have formulated many of my theories on exactly what and how VP works (or can work) based on what I have sen & observed and heard.....EVEN THIS LATEST THEORY OF YOURS SPX, which you shared above in your post, now is added to my inner "files" for rumination and application if and when the time comes where I encounter a similar situation or observe what you have seen!Again, VIDEO POKER is a game made, run and played by human beings.....as such it can and is subject to change, manipulation and the whims, foibles and weakness of human nature.   In a corrupt world where shenanigans take place with regularity all over the place, it would not, and should not, surprise any reasonable human being to find out that Video poker today is infested, or saturated, with games that do not simply operate with the previously held assumptions that all you have is a RNG, a paytable, and a simple program to reconcile the results.     There is something more to it, something more going on.....there has to be.    You just cannot have a massive amount of change take place in a specific time period, where a significant majority of players ALL report the same or similar findings, experiences and results, the vast majority of which are NEGATIVE or "BAD", and chalk it up to simple variance or chance or coincidence.....As always, this is just my opinion and take on what I see, learn, hear and conclude based on evidence presented to me.   And as always, I maintain that I WISH (and hope) I am 100% wrong, that video poker is (and remains) shenanigan free and that my apparent, sudden (5 plus year long) turn of putrid luck will suddenly and abruptly turn into outrageous good fortune!     I doubt it, but I hope......in the meantime I continue to search and analyze and formulate theories on what the hell is happening out there.

[Vman96]

If you and other players are getting this dismal of results, you could try to contact the gaming commission, but who knows how much they'd do. It could be horrid luck, but it is really starting to get in the "fishy" range. I would also consider playing elsewhere if possible. And that delay on the Aces is disturbing if you aren't noticing it when you hold other trips. My g/f got a delay like that on a 4X Royal Draw once at STP. I think it was coincidental, but she had the opposite reaction. With the delay, she was expecting the last card to come!

[onemoretry]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try to provide some answers to these questiions asked in the preceding paragraph....!


I do not claim to be intimately familiar with the processes for certifying and testing video poker machines. In order to confidently provide the answers you want, I would have to do considerable research. I am not looking for another job.

If you really want those answers, I suggest you eliminate the middleman {me}, and research it yourself.

[notes1]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try to provide some answers to these questiions asked in the preceding paragraph....!


I do not claim to be intimately familiar with the processes for certifying and testing video poker machines. In order to confidently provide the answers you want, I would have to do considerable research. I am not looking for another job.

If you really want those answers, I suggest you eliminate the middleman {me}, and research it yourself.[/QUOTE]
 why is it when the 'doubters' question the integrity of the machines or the state of regulation, the 'believers' demand proof. but, when the reverse occurs, no proof is offered? the GERMAN government has now expanded it's criminal case into the VW scandal and states more than a dozen people knew about the emision/computer falsefication. so much for the theory that no way so many people could keep a secret for so long. this went on for years.  

[spxChrome]

Yea keeping a secret is not that huge of a deal. I imagine the developers of these chips sign a multi-million dollar secrecy clause. I mean if they can keep the public from knowing the last episode of the Bob Newhart show ends it can't be that difficult to hide the fact that the chip makers have exposed some type of loophole in the regulations.

We are putting together a case to submit to the gaming commission with more stats than you can shake a stick at. What will come of it? I doubt nothing. While the gaming commission is there to protect the people they do work for the gaming industry so I doubt they will bite the hand that feeds them. If they did take the time to investigate giving they had the resources and knowledge (most of them don't know the difference between JOB or DDB) I am sure they would close the loophole the chip makers have infiltrated.

[wildman49]

Does anyone know if each company has there own software package in there machines?The casino I play at just put in WMS poker, we have IGT and Bally machines.Are the programs patented? So each has there own? How could a gaming commission test a patented program?http://now.wms.com/products/mypoker

[Eduardo]

A patent means others can't copy your idea. It has nothing to do with testing or going through a regulatory process.

You could probably file a patent for an idea that is illegal but it wouldn't do much good if you weren't allowed to sell it anywhere.

[onemoretry]

why is it when the 'doubters' question the integrity of the machines or the state of regulation, the 'believers' demand proof. but, when the reverse occurs, no proof is offered
Innocent until proven guilty versus guilty until proven innocent?

[olds442jetaway]

     Just a few more observations and that is all that they are at this point. All any of us have is our own personal and live experiences.

1. I am afraid I am heading for my third 500k plus Royalless streak. Had a marathon session last night and today that ended quite well. I will post that part elsewhere. However, over 12k hands again with no Royal. Everything else was about average. Approaching the 200k mark now without a Royal. My survival this year on vp is only due to one thing and that is my Martingale clone method. To me, that begs the question....Why do so many casinos limit your play to 5 coins. I am surviving due to the allowance of betting up to 25 at Mohegan. They used to allow up to 80 units bet and a on a few machines up to 100. You would think they would want the extra action at the higher bet levels, yet these machines were yanked years ago.

2. Every one of my sessions of 4k hands or more in the last few years has one absolutely horrible dud sequence that almost nobody would believe unless you saw or experienced it. That said, every session has also had one hard to believe good streak though much shorter than the dud streak.

3. The few banks of machines that offer bets of up to 40 units at Mohegan Sun have the worst odds like in the 95% or lower range. Finally, you will rarely find tripple play, 5 or ten play machines or even fifty or hundred play machines that offer 99% paytables anywhere. That tells me that with proper control of raising and lowering your bets, you can survive a very long time and maybe catch something good in the interim. A mild Martingale is a definite loser long term as any betting system is, but if you can shut off the tap and have good discipline, at least for me, it is the only way to survive these games as they exist today.