Not one AWAK in 125,000 hands and counting

[Sandrina Roc]

I don't count hands but I got AWAK on $1 machine at Horseshoe Hammond on 5/28. Everyone counting hands, are you counting all hands played, casino and here, or just casino? 

[ko king]

So they won't even bother to run a "test program" on the machine? If not, you're boned. Sorry that either you're the unluckiest VP player in America along with your friend, or they rig the games. You should name the casino here.

If he could get whomever to run test on the vp machines my guess would be that he would be told all the machines are operating "within the curve", that's what I was told. When I ask what the curve was I was told it was between 84-99.99% return, they did say that a couple of the lower denomination machines were slightly below the 84% at the time the test was run. The thing was, I expected to hear something that dealt with my complaint which was the missing premium hands. When I brought up the expected averages for those hands I was ask where I saw those numbers and where those numbers were posted anywhere on the machines.

[notes1]

[QUOTE=Vman96] So they won't even bother to run a "test program" on the machine? If not, you're boned. Sorry that either you're the unluckiest VP player in America along with your friend, or they rig the games. You should name the casino here.

If he could get whomever to run test on the vp machines my guess would be that he would be told all the machines are operating "within the curve", that's what I was told. When I ask what the curve was I was told it was between 84-99.99% return, they did say that a couple of the lower denomination machines were slightly below the 84% at the time the test was run. The thing was, I expected to hear something that dealt with my complaint which was the missing premium hands. When I brought up the expected averages for those hands I was ask where I saw those numbers and where those numbers were posted anywhere on the machines. [/QUOTE]

I wonder, is it possible when 'they'(regulators) test the machines, are they checking to just make sure the machine pays the minimum allowed by state law or are they actually testing for the advertised payout percentages? this of course, is if anyone really checks at all.

[Vman96]

I wonder, is it possible when 'they'(regulators) test the machines, are they checking to just make sure the machine pays the minimum allowed by state law or are they actually testing for the advertised payout percentages? this of course, is if anyone really checks at all.

If it's not testing the integrity of the RNG and the availability of all expected game outcomes being random and falling in line with expected probabilities, it's pointless. For example, a 9/6 DDB machine returning just above the state minimum is 100% rigged in states that mandate "Vegas Style" VP. The average patron simply doesn't play that badly.

I still believe koking's story was told to him by a casino employee who was too dumb to know the difference between slots and video poker. I know the slot team at Monte Carlo is clueless as well.

[notes1]

[QUOTE=notes1]
I wonder, is it possible when 'they'(regulators) test the machines, are they checking to just make sure the machine pays the minimum allowed by state law or are they actually testing for the advertised payout percentages? this of course, is if anyone really checks at all.

If it's not testing the integrity of the RNG and the availability of all expected game outcomes being random and falling in line with expected probabilities, it's pointless. For example, a 9/6 DDB machine returning just above the state minimum is 100% rigged in states that mandate "Vegas Style" VP. The average patron simply doesn't play that badly.

I still believe koking's story was told to him by a casino employee who was too dumb to know the difference between slots and video poker. I know the slot team at Monte Carlo is clueless as well. [/QUOTE]

I would agree with you that most casino employees, including techs are clueless about the RNG and the relationship between the advertised payout and return percentages. they may how to fix them, but that is about it.

I also know you believe in the integrity of the machines. but, you have to admit that there are some stories being told, with stats to back them up, that might just make even you, wonder just a bit. I am talking about casinos outside of Nevada.

regulators that do not seem interested in 'informed' complaints and only checking machines upon a complaint does not give me complete confidence in all machines in every casino. along with the fact that some areas appear to have no state regulators at all.

[ko king]

[QUOTE=notes1]
I wonder, is it possible when 'they'(regulators) test the machines, are they checking to just make sure the machine pays the minimum allowed by state law or are they actually testing for the advertised payout percentages? this of course, is if anyone really checks at all.

If it's not testing the integrity of the RNG and the availability of all expected game outcomes being random and falling in line with expected probabilities, it's pointless. For example, a 9/6 DDB machine returning just above the state minimum is 100% rigged in states that mandate "Vegas Style" VP. The average patron simply doesn't play that badly.

I still believe koking's story was told to him by a casino employee who was too dumb to know the difference between slots and video poker. I know the slot team at Monte Carlo is clueless as well. [/QUOTE]


Got to know one of the regulators pretty darn good, I ask him what he did prior to getting the job as a state regulator and he said he sold used cars. The guy was a really nice guy even opened a machine up to point out the RNG which was sealed and had had a state security tape. My opinion is that you are giving these regulators far to much credit. On one occasion I ask one of the regulators if the vp I was playing was run by an RNG, she looked at me like I was speaking a different language so I said is the vp completely random, she said "I'm guessing that's something I should know, let me check and I'll get right back to you". I got to know the lady pretty well and couldn't help but notice one day that she wasn't wearing a state badge, turns out she went to work for the casino as a liaison for them and the state regulatory board.

[ko king]

[QUOTE=ko king] [QUOTE=Vman96] So they won't even bother to run a "test program" on the machine? If not, you're boned. Sorry that either you're the unluckiest VP player in America along with your friend, or they rig the games. You should name the casino here.

If he could get whomever to run test on the vp machines my guess would be that he would be told all the machines are operating "within the curve", that's what I was told. When I ask what the curve was I was told it was between 84-99.99% return, they did say that a couple of the lower denomination machines were slightly below the 84% at the time the test was run. The thing was, I expected to hear something that dealt with my complaint which was the missing premium hands. When I brought up the expected averages for those hands I was ask where I saw those numbers and where those numbers were posted anywhere on the machines. [/QUOTE]

I wonder, is it possible when 'they'(regulators) test the machines, are they checking to just make sure the machine pays the minimum allowed by state law or are they actually testing for the advertised payout percentages? this of course, is if anyone really checks at all.[/QUOTE]

Darned if I know what and if they really check anything other than to see if the state seal is broken on the RNG program. I have never witnessed any machine being checked or test being run.

[spxChrome]

Bottom line is nobody in power has a clue what is going on, it is suppose to be illegal for MS to have VP with over 100% payback. Guess what we have 3 old $5 denom that were converted down a couple of years ago and they have 10/6 DDB and triple deuces. Both that are over 100%. So while it is illegal for a casino to have those yet there they sit. Why, because nobody has a clue what it really going on. Basically manufactuers tell owners we have new chip that will increase your profile by X they try it out and it works, they replace all the machines. Nobody really knows what the new chip is doing. You can speculate all you want by reading laws, listening to pros whatever you want. Nobody knows but the chip programmer.

It is suppose to deal a royal every 40,000 - yea sure but make sure it only happens at less than max credits or every 10th time make it at full credits the other 9 at 1 credit. So when they run a test on it all is well within regulations at 1 royal every 40K. I doubt it shows it was a max bet or not, so basically chip makers are exploiting loopholes in the regulations with these new chips that they did not think of before to 1) sell new machines 2) increase profits 3) increase casino profits 4) sell more chips... I like King have pretty much quit going, they can make these chips do whatever they want without cheating the system but by exploiting outdated and unregulated regulations.

[notes1]

spx, excellent post. I have little doubt that some variation of what you are suggesting, is not only possible, but likely occurring at some casinos.

[Waiting4RF]

Here is a comparison to quads at a low denomination. I switched from JOB to DDB last month and kept track of my Quads and hands played. These are all single line nickel and quarter machines (8/5 96.7%). Single line nickels were on Spin Poker or other Gimmick games that allow one line. All the best quads (except 1 quad 2,3,4 with Kicker) were on nickel machines. All play was in Maryland except the one quad already mentioned was in Delaware. All quarter play was single coin.


Quads
5-K:    17
2,3,4:    6
2,3,4 with Kicker:   2
Aces:   4
Aces with Kicker:   2

Total hands: 6775
Total quads: 31