It's Vegas Baby!!

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=billryan]So you think people would willingly trade better long term
results for possible short term ones?
[/quote]Not all, but many do.  Why do you think DDB is so popular?  It's because there are so many jackpots even though most players lose 90% of the time and Bob Dancer says he considers the game unbeatable.   Not everyone wants to play like or be a video poker professional.   Playing for fun is what the majority of VP players I know do.  There's nothing wrong or bad about either, they're just different.  I can see how someone who lives in Vegas would think everyone should be deadly serious about their gambling.  Believe it or not there are those of us who don't care that much, we just want to be entertained.

[alpax]

DDB is a very good example you've brought up Phil. Even if DDB is 9/5 or 8/5, people will still play that over 8/5 Bonus Poker or Airport Deuces because it has those jackpot hands. I think 90% of the time losses is too high, it is more like low 70% and high 20% of the players win if they play seriously for a few hours. Then there are the bulletproof days each player will get go experience where they get quad after quad. Otherwise people will not find video poker much fun without the opportunity to win big coming at a cost of higher house edge.

Mr. Dancer made a legitimate criticism of people who played 9/5 DDB or lower at a Vegas casino, made a point that 9/6 DDB is abundant elsewhere. Also considered 9/5 DDB an unwinnable game after everything considered.

Mr. Dancer has gone on record to play DDB on Ultimate X and Quick Quads since it boosted the payout, as well as 40/10/6 pay schedule. He is always focused on the highest returning games.

There are a broad range of so called recreational players. There are people who just put in a $10 or $20 bill and hold random cards, they think it is rigged to not give you the card you need to get a quad, full house, or flushes. And then there are very knowledgeable and disciplined players like OMT who know DDB or TDB is a trap.

I think with the time and budget Phil and his wife has allocated VP as a hobby each year despite not being professionals, they're reaching the levels of long run play in Deuces Wild and should not keep thinking about short term benefits.

[OTABILL]

I have posted my objective and perspective (shared by my wife) when going to a local casino for an evening or Vegas/Laughlin etc. for a vacation numerous times on this forum. It is for entertainment, fun -- basically having a good time. Apparently, the idea of spending money for gambling, etc, regardless of the prospects of coming out ahead monetarily is considered anathema by some on this forum. That's ok. Different strokes for different folks. All I ask is you respect our view even if you disagree. But when someone ridicules or is condescending to us, that's what I find repulsive. Do "you" react the same way to someone who spends $1,000 for a pair of tickets to go to a Barbra Streisand concert. How about, going to the Super Bowl. At least gambling, we may break even or perhaps win some money. No prospect of that outcome after seeing Streisand, or Madonna, etc. Of course we want to win while gambling, and do our best to accomplish that result. But to reiterate, our primary "objective" is entertainment. That's why I say spending money, not losing money and why we, and others, call ourselves recreational players.
    

[markinca]

I respect Bob Dancer and Bill Ryan's view of the game and their opinions.  What I object to is their calling players who know perfect mathematical strategy and make a conscious decision to go against it "Bad Players", stupid or or undisciplined.  That is a totally elitist attitude and not at all helpful to anyone on this forum or else ware.


Definitely not trying to pick a fight here, but I'm pretty sure going against basic mathematical strategy is the very definition of a 'bad player'.

Do I consider them stupid? No. Do I think they're undisciplined? No. As long as they're enjoying what they're doing with their money, I don't care what decisions they make, but they're most certainly 'bad', by even the loosest definition. Being a bad player and a stupid player are not the same thing.

If someone were to ask your wife if she's a good video poker player, would she say yes, even knowing all the deviations she makes?

Like, when I play BJ and some guy on third base makes some wacky play and he 'takes the dealer's bust card', as I've heard so many times from other players, I don't care. As long as the player's having fun with their money, more power to them. Hit on a hard 20, I don't care. But they're the very definition of 'bad'.

[markinca]

delete please

[Vman96]

[quote=billryan]So you think people would willingly trade better long term
results for possible short term ones?
   Not all, but many do.  Why do you think DDB is so popular?  It's because there are so many jackpots even though most players lose 90% of the time and Bob Dancer says he considers the game unbeatable.   Not everyone wants to play like or be a video poker professional.   Playing for fun is what the majority of VP players I know do.  There's nothing wrong or bad about either, they're just different.  I can see how someone who lives in Vegas would think everyone should be deadly serious about their gambling.  Believe it or not there are those of us who don't care that much, we just want to be entertained.



[/QUOTE]

Dancer doesn't always think DDB is unbeatable. His bread and butter game at South Point on double point days was 9/6 DDB Quick Quads (99.65%; 100.25% after double points). However, they got rid of it when it one day that particular bank of machines created 25% of the casino's W2-Gs for a double point day. It was a smart play for those with the bankroll to afford it, and they hammered those machines on double point days.

And I agree with you Phil, many players do trade future return for a bigger chance at a jackpot/sizeable win. Many players have a DDB or not playing at all mindset. Billyjoe insisted on TDB regardless of what the paytable said. He would even play 7/5 TDB (94.92%) garbage at the Beau sometimes.

For a lot of casual VP players, I really feel like DDB is nearly the perfect game. Every quad is at least "satisfying". And the premiums can sometimes let you leave a sizable winner. I would much prefer casinos offered Double Double Aces and Faces though with the same base paytables (adds ~0.46% to the game). I'm guessing DDB came first though.

[Lionqueen]

I'm just curious - do all the people that strictly play the math come out winners at the end of each year?

[Vman96]

I'm just curious - do all the people that strictly play the math come out winners at the end of each year?

Of course not. Many casinos only have games where the house has the overall edge in its favor.

And even those that only play games with a net player edge (like Bob) could still lose from bad luck. Especially if a player is playing games with small longterm edges like 10/7 Double Bonus or 10/6 DDB.

Playing according to the math for many rec players is about "losing less" longterm, which consequently gives them a greater chance of winning at the end of the year. But if they are playing negative expectation games, they will need good luck to be ahead for the year.

[alpax]

Another way you can think of it is if you play by the math, you can play longer with the same bankroll.

[FloridaPhil]

Obviously, anyone can play any way they wish with their own money.  What I object to is someone being called "bad" or undisciplined because they knowingly and intentionally make changes to mathematically correct strategy for their own purposes.  To me a bad player is someone who does not take the time to understand odds, will play any game without knowing how to play it and picks cards based on hunches or superstitions.  If you understand good VP principals and choose to vary from the math you are not necessarily a bad player, you are modifying the game to fit your personal desires.  Let me give you an example.  Suppose you went to the casino and they had a special offer that day.  The casino was giving away a cruise to "YouPickIt" for the most quad 7s.   Your dream was to go on a cruise to "YouPickIt".   The rest of the players in the casino were pros and could care less about a cruise to "YouPickIt".   You went against the math and you won the cruise.   Were you a bad player for going against the math so you could go to "YouPickIt"?   Heck no!   You knew the odds, made your own decision about what was important to you and you won.   Did the pros in the room think you were bad, stupid or undisciplined?  Perhaps, unless they knew how much you wanted to win that cruise.   Players play VP for all kinds of reasons and many want something different from the game than you do.  To some it's all about the money, to some it's about experiencing jackpots and to others it may be about playing all day on a budget.  It's all good as long as you get your money's worth.  Before you call anyone on this forum a "Bad Player", maybe you should ask them what they are trying to accomplish first?