Thoughts For Beginners

[FloridaPhil]

I think this conversation has come to an end.  It will only degrade further and there is nothing to be gained.  Billy, this is your cue to get the last word.  Have at it.  I'm bored with the entire discussion.  

[FAA]

I was playing max coin dollars, he was playing single
coin quarters. We both were losing, but I was losing hundreds while he
was losing quarters. I commented on his single coin play and he turned
to me and said "It's all the same game". --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yeah. Enlightened guy. I envy the MCD players. I am of course a Mickey D player. But I have a lot of fun. Today's max coin Straight Flush bailed me out of a big time hole during an ill advised afternoon session. Gotta love that 9,100 to 1 hand cameo. I just wish it was before the $53 loss. The $75 JOB quad, Aces natch, cemented a solid winning day this morning.

[Tedlark]

[QUOTE=Tedlark]Every casino employee is also subject to working in nasty, smoke filled casinos, should we denigrate them in such the same manner? I'm guessing that "no" is the correct response.  Is that right?
[/QUOTE]

To quote Gary Cooper: "Ah yup."

[ukaserex]

If we can find a duration of play for which the impact of luck is 20%,
we can play longer and the impact of luck will be less than 20%.  Or we
could play shorter and the impact of luck would be greater than 20%.

I don't think the average reader will realize how profound this is.

It's common sense - but it's not that commonly understood, if that makes any sense.

I may come off as silly right now, but reading that was like re-reading a scripture that'd I'd read as a child but had forgotten.

All this time - limiting my play to just $400-500 bucks, I was creating a gaming session where luck had a larger impact instead of a smaller one.

Seriously though - this is spot on for the real world non-advantage player. There's going to be a level of luck - but how much luck depends on how much you play.

Brilliantly written, coherent, concise - and giving Phil respect and the benefit of the doubt (and Phil certainly seems like a bright, intelligent person who intends to be helpful and engaging)

[FloridaPhil]

Billy is right about a few things.  It has been hypocritical for me to promote my enjoyment of video poker and denounce high stakes gambling at the same time.  I justified this to myself by advising players to play small and to consider the game as recreation.  I now realize that the denomination is a personal decision that has nothing to do with how someone feels about gambling in general.  For some, betting bigger enhances their enjoyment.  I have adjusted my thinking on that subject.I also wrongly believed players are concerned about odds and/or results.  Most players will play any game put in front of them.  They use their own strategy and could care less about mathematics.  If they win, fine.  If they don't, that's normal and they move on.  The fact that someone is reading these posts means they are desirous to improve and that's a good thing.I believe the basic strategy at the heart of the fictional character who calls himself "Bob Dancer" is solid.  Using it will increase your return and earn you more comps.  I seriously doubt anyone wins long term, but I understand keeping that dream alive fills casinos and sells products.  If someone claims they consistently beat the casino, make your own decision on the truthfulness of those statements.Video poker is by far the cheapest game to play in the casino.  At most of the casinos where we play the minimum slot bet is 60 cents.  Until they remove the coin select button and they will, you can play video poker for 25 cents a hand.  At the same time you will most likely be playing with much better odds than a slot machine.  Some casinos out of my State have nickle machines.  Check the odds.  It is very common to find single coin odds higher than max coin lower denomination odds.  If you can stomach a short coin royal, you can often gain some return by doing so.  The cheapest way to enjoy video poker is to play on this website.  The little amount you pay for a Gold membership is well worth the cost.  If you don't mind the ads, play for free.I am a proponent of cheap video poker play.   I believe most video poker players would be better off financially if they were also.   In the 8 years I have been on this forum, that is one thing that has been consistent.  This does not make me popular with casino operators and those who promote professional gambling or betting bigger.  From time to time criticisms and insults will be aimed at me on this forum.  Ask yourself, Why would someone care if others want to play 25 cents or even a nickle a hand?  What possible harm could this cause?  I'll leave their motives up to you. I enjoy this website and this forum.  I have met some nice people through my involvement as small as it is.  I do not enjoy responding to personal insults crafted to disparage me personally or my view of the game.  I do not think everyone will play like I do and I do not think you are wrong for playing any way you desire.  I do think we should keep our forum discussions civil and avoid name calling or addressing family members.   I would hope we can at least agree on that.

[onemoretry]

Excellent post, and congratulations on owning up to some of the apparent contradictions that have bugged me about many of your previous posts. In particular, the notion that casinos are some kind of hell-hole, yet that's where you prefer to spend your leisure time and resources has stood out.

[New2vp]

Brilliantly written, coherent, concise - and giving Phil respect and the benefit of the doubtThanks, uka.  Sometimes it is difficult to satisfy multiple goals and stay consistent throughout a long post.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry] In particular, the notion that casinos are some kind of hell-hole, yet
that's where you prefer to spend your leisure time and resources has
stood out.[/quote]I'm sorry if I gave that impression.  Hell-hole is not an accurate description of most of the casinos we frequent.  You need to endure a few negatives, but overall we obviously think it's worth whatever inconveniences it takes to enjoy playing the games.   The biggest negative is tobacco smoke.  That is one of the biggest attractions of playing in Colorado as the entire State is smoke free.  Smokers do not realize how awful second hand smoke is to nonsmokers, especially cigar smokers.  However, casinos are one of the few places left where public smoking is allowed, so I guess they need to catch up when they go there.My past negative comments about the casino environment have been made in reference to professional gambling as a career choice.   Bob stated publicly that one of the main reasons for his divorce was casino smoke.   Lots of marriages split up these days, so I believe there is no way to make a connection between Bob's profession and his marital issues.  It's none of my business anyway.  Bob felt he needed to make a statement, so he did.  I suspect working at night, bankroll swings, health issues and constant financial pressure also have to be part of this occupation.  Then there is the social stigma of being married to a professional gambler.  In Vegas this might not raise any eyebrows, but I think it might influence more than a few wives in a negative way.  I'm not equating anything as being evil or immoral about professional gamblers.  I'm stating reasons I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one, which was the subject we were discussing at the time.I am not against anyone's personal career choice as long as it's legal.  What I have reservations about is using professional testimonials as a sales tool for the gaming industry or  to sell products and services.   The celebrity endorsement goes like this  "Bob Dancer makes millions playing video poker.  You can too.  Just bet like he does!"   Bob often tells people they don't have his skills, or they aren't smart enough or that he is one of the few people that can make gambling profitable.  His disclaimers may be completely accurate, but they have the affect of daring people to prove he's wrong.  The players lose a lot of money, the casino operators are happy and the world keeps turning.Why do I care if other people lose money gambling?   A forum is a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.    If all you read on this forum is "Use this strategy or that and you can make money gambling." and you never hear anything negative, what are you going to believe?  Clearly, both sides of this issue need to be discussed if we are going to be honest with our members.Am I somehow fixated on Bob Dancer?  At this time, the government does not require warning labels on video poker books or software, so it's "Caveat emptor" (buyer beware).  Bob Dancer is the most prolific marketer of these products, so he is the one that catches all the attention.   I want players to know the odds of making money long term playing video poker are very slim.  Not impossible, but slim.  How slim?   I suggest you read what Bob Dancer himself has to say about that.  When he says you won't be able to do it, he's speaking from experience.If we are going to have intelligent discussions about video poker we need to discuss losing as well as winning.  Both are part of the game and both directly influence the other.  Discussing only winning is dishonest.  Discussing only losing discourages players from playing the game and when that happens we all lose.

[alpax]

Before I begin, I have thoroughly enjoyed all the insights shared from New2vp again. I just think around the time you've pursued a different direction was when the video poker world has taken a turn for the worse.

I went on record to expressing that I did enjoy tuning into the FloridaPhil vs billryan arguments with video poker, but I regret to see that it has gone to worse levels; where attacking family and moral values has gone too far, so I'll express some clarification to what is being argued about.

With regards to Mr. Dancer's weekly column about if his niece (not a fictional daughter) were to marry a professional gambler, it seems to me that Phil looked at the title of the column and just reacted in such way. However, the written content inside should the evaluated almost as if you cannot judge a book by its cover. The article seems to be indirectly promoting the radio show where Mr. Dancer as a host gets to meet a good amount of successful gamblers as well as that it was inspired by Phil's opinion. It specifically does not target video poker players in general, but any form of gambling. Long story short, Mr. Dancer would want a long talk with this man and what he does as a gambler. Mr. Dancer wants to probe this man to a point where he can deems this person as someone who can succeed at gambling or not; and since he has met a good number of successful players, Mr. Dancer would only approve if the person has good habits and very capable of bringing home the money.

Out of the people who try to become a professional gambler, a very few out of that group succeed. They are not just taking an easy route, it requires a high high level of intelligence and creativity to succeed at it. More people than not do not like the direct supervisor or boss they work for. Sometimes they are well superior than the direct boss, but the direct boss gets compensated well from the person's hard work. It happens to intelligent people, so I do not blame these people for finding other ways to survive.

Phil has mentioned as he has a rightful opinion, that people should do meaningful things to help others. Aside from teaching and writing, Mr. Dancer also pays taxes from the winnings; the IRS knows about the W2G wins from the casinos as well as the many $10k money transaction from the bank, so he cannot get away with that. What is significant about that? A good percentage of people do not pay income tax and receive subsidizes as welfare from those tax dollars.

Mr. Dancer has brought up the cigarette smoke as a big drawback to what he does several times from the radio show, forum posts, and the weekly columns. A few months ago he admitting to even pass up on small opportunities if the casino has high levels of smoke. I do not want to mention members, but I agree with the said opinions that these gamblers do not age well either from the smoking conditions.

Yes gambling is a factor that can destroy marriages. Not just from a smoking perspective, but the addiction and financial part. Mr. Dancer is so informed about bad/poor gambling habits that can be very very costly.

I also appreciate Phil coming out clean with some of these topics, but the problem in hand is all the assumptions made. All I know is people get pissed off at me when I assumed stuff long time ago.

[FloridaPhil]

Totally fair and honest post.  No matter what you may think of professional gambling as a career choice, you have to admit it wouldn't be a good day for most dads if your daughter told you her future husband played video poker for a living.  That said, I have never met a successful gambler.  I've met a lot of big talkers, but not once did they offer any substantial proof of profit.  The only time I ever personally made a long term profit playing video poker was the two and one half years I limited my losses by playing mostly single coin when I posted pictures of my wins on this forum.  I suspect if I had kept this up over my lifetime my results wouldn't have remained positive, but I wouldn't have lost much either.I suspect Mr. Dancer published that article in an attempt to improve the image of professional gamblers.  It didn't alter my personal opinion, but it did make me reconsider some of my assumptions.  Perhaps if I attended one of Mr. Dancer's classes and saw for myself that he doesn't have horns growing out of his head, my opinion might change.   Just kidding....Anyway, I think we've aired this subject out pretty well.  There is no need to use this forum as a sparing match or contest of words.  I'm perfectly fine with disagreement, that's why we are here.  I will never be convinced that betting any video poker game bigger is better.  You may be able to come up with math that says this is possible, but the odds are just too long for me.  So far the casinos welcome me along with the high rollers.  They may have better seats, but the game is essentially the same.Where I totally agree with Mr. Dancer's strategy is in the benefits of seeking out the best games and playing as computer perfect as you can.   He believes playing positive games bigger is better.  I recommend playing smaller to limit your losses.  That's been our only major disagreement.