How exactly are video poker machines rigged?

[dinghy]

In any state-regulated casino I don't think they are rigged at any coin level.

I can agree with that (Nevada), although I have no idea of my exact records. I don't track the UX action separately.

[asteroid]

Anyway, when VP professionals who teach classes and write books, along with bonus hustlers like myself who take down tens of thousands of plays a years say play at Indian casinos at your own risk - they are probably just blowing smoke.

Yes, I'm the unreasonable one for doubting an outrageous claim.

Only Bob teaches classes. Is there anyone else? This is what I got in another thread:

"Referees are important...I like the idea that I can appeal a casinos action to a reasonably fair referee...There are still states where's there's virtually no regulation. And every Native tribe sets its own rules. If you think a machine is unfair, youre welcome to complain to the tribal council. And good luck." (Million Dollar Video Poker;Bob Dancer; pg. 17. 2003 ed.)

Where's the cheating allegation?

Obviously he's a little less comfortable at a tribal, but he still plays them if he likes the edge. I suspect he would play a 2% edge at a tribal without hesitation, assuming the stakes are to his liking.

As for the bonus hustler chatter, do they ever post online? A cite or two would be helpful.

I never wrote that Bob Dancer made cheating allegations against self-regulated casinos. Please let me know where I stated that Bob Dancer has made cheating allegations against self-regulated casinos. I also don't recall stating that Bob Dancer wouldn't play at a self-regulated casino if he felt he had an edge. It's strange that Bob Dancer would even mention self-regulated casinos in his book if he didn't intend that the reader should keep in mind some sort of caution when playing at such places. Why even mention it all if everything is Kosher ? Bonus Hustlers post from time to time at Wizard of Vegas and there are probably private Forum and Discord discussions as well - along with Twitter discussions (with regard to advantage plays and not cheating discussions). Aside from Bob Dancer, Richard Munchkin has also stated you should play at your own risk at self-regulated casinos, although he is probably referring to felt plays rather than machine plays. I believe James Grosjean has stated something similar (both on the felt and at the machine), but I am not going to search for it.

[dinghy]

I never wrote that Bob Dancer made cheating allegations against self-regulated casinos. Please let me know where I stated that Bob Dancer has made cheating allegations against self-regulated casinos. I also don't recall stating that Bob Dancer wouldn't play at a self-regulated casino if he felt he had an edge.

Bad interpretation by me, but I assumed you mentioned him because he aligned with your viewpoint. Your assessment of cheating is probably an 8 on the Richter scale. Bob is maybe a 4? For a 4, I probably wouldn't get out of bed. And I certainly wouldn't run outside screaming.

Bonus Hustlers post from time to time at Wizard of Vegas and I there are probably private Forum and Discord discussions as well - along with Twitter discussions (with regard to advantage plays and not cheating discussions).

If APs consider rigged machines a serious risk, there should be threads about it on the AP-oriented forums. On WoV, I see one discussion of a suspect game overseas. And of course there's occasional talk about openly rigged machine categories such as class 2s and VLTs.

Aside from Bob Dancer, Richard Munchkin has also stated you should play at your own risk at self-regulated casinos, although he is probably referring to felt plays rather than machine plays. I believe James Grosjean has stated something similar (both on the felt and at the machine), but I am not going to search for it.

None of these people are alleging 105% payback on a 130% machine. I believe they worry particularly about backoffs being uglier at a tribal.

[asteroid]

And I certainly wouldn't run outside screaming.

Who's running outside screaming ?

None of these people are alleging 105% payback on a 130% machine.

That's right. Who said they were ?

If APs consider rigged machines a serious risk, there should be threads about it on the AP-oriented forums.

So there's no threads about it on private forums ?
Why all the Strawmen ?

[asteroid]

And I certainly wouldn't run outside screaming.

Who's running outside screaming ?

None of these people are alleging 105% payback on a 130% machine.

That's right. Who said they were ?
Why all the Strawmen ?

If APs consider rigged machines a serious risk, there should be threads about it on the AP-oriented forums.

So there's no threads about it on private forums ? Advantage players probably don't usually post things publicly including the possibility of cheating.

[dinghy]

Why all the Strawmen ?

You got me.

I wasted some time responding to you.

[tech58]

Why all the Strawmen ?

You got me.

I wasted some time responding to you.

Good response dinghy.
They come in here with the typical internet chip on their shoulder. They disrupt then they go away. This sight sees steady infestation of narcissist's and it has degenerated to a shadow of what it used to be.
Go ahead assteroid try to bait any of us regulars, your thin and it shows.

[asteroid]

Why all the Strawmen ?

You got me.

I wasted some time responding to you.

Good response dinghy.
They come in here with the typical internet chip on their shoulder. They disrupt then they go away. This sight sees steady infestation of narcissist's and it has degenerated to a shadow of what it used to be.
Go ahead assteroid try to bait any of us regulars, your thin and it shows.

Bait you with what; facts Tech68 ?

[calwatch]

A while back Bob and Richard had a former slot director at Pechanga, Buddy Frank, and he said that the large Indian casinos are so concerned about being seen on the up and up that their regulatory agencies are more diligent than Nevada casinos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oHB5HthJJk&t=2620s

[Vman96]

As we speak,Bizarro World/ Mohegan Sun is downgrading 3 of my favorite 99 percent games.

To my way of thinking, downgrades are consistent with fair machines. If they have the ability to cheat, why would they downgrade?

I've brought this up a few times. No one EVER gives a logical answer to this question. They usually just ignore it.

If they were rigged, you should see "full pay" machines all over the place.

Here is one method for non-random results (see IGT patent below). A self-regulated casino could migrate this from tournament software into the field.

Footage of patent in action at an actual VP tournament:
https://i.imgur.com/Wl2XFZk.mp4

But they would have to reprogram it the opposite way. The tourney deals give you much better than average deals. I noticed it playing in an Ultimate X tourney. Scores were way, way higher than what a random deal would give. My gf got a 12X quad in her session, ffs. We weren't even close to the top score. At least we cashed though.

Casinos are probably too lazy to reprogram a machine to be "rigged" even if there is no regulation stopping them from doing it. Just lower your slot payback a percent. Slot players won't notice enough to stop playing there.