This is BullSheeet

[Tedlark]

That is not a better question. By your own admission you are saying that the large number of royals you were hitting was normal and life was good. When you were hitting that number of royals, were the other players around you hitting them like you were too?

As some people here have said, and I believe, video poker is a long term proposition and the only way to beat it short term is to hit, be up and then quit the game. Otherwise it is logical that what goes up must come down.

I have not seen such a dramatic decrease in my play as you have but I don't play in Atlantic City either. From all of the doom and gloom stories that people post here about how awful play in Atlantic City is, it is doubtful that I will ever play there but I'm not ruling it out. I have played in Atlantic City before but it has been several years. I think Nucky Thompson was playing a machine next to me the last time I was there.

My bottom line opinion is that I don't think there is a nationwide (or even statewide or citywide) conspiracy to jigger with video poker machines and until indisputable proof does come out I will continue to belief there is nothing wrong with video poker.

[jetermacaw]

I think I have said this before but I'll try again, has any disgruntled casino worker come forth with indisputable proof that something is amiss in AC video poker. Lord knows there are 1000s of them now. Someone, slot tech, programmer anyone that can prove something is crooked.?

[FAA]

Jeter, a whistle blowing former slot tech or programmer would be music to our ears! I wasn't around back in the day and have no historical frame of reference. But I have seen stark differences in VP pay out frequency among the city casinos, and reacted accordingly. I love that Quad High feeling I get when I hit one, especially on a three plus coin bet. Unfortunately, that chase often costs me a good ten bucks from my prior summit.

[FAA]

I have not seen such a dramatic decrease in my play as you have but I don't play in Atlantic City either.Res ipsa loquitur.

[DaBurglar]

I think I have said this before but I'll try again, has any disgruntled casino worker come forth with indisputable proof that something is amiss in AC video poker. Lord knows there are 1000s of them now. Someone, slot tech, programmer anyone that can prove something is crooked.?

This argument / point has been made before and keeps resurrecting itself.....I'll argue that in fact, there ARE "whistle blowers" out there as we speak (or post), you just need to start associating and hanging out where "ex" casino or New Jersey gaming officials hang out.....I have spoken at length with both types, but it is not like all they do is stand around with a tag or sign that states they are former Casino employees and are actively looking to "sound the alarm" ..... But we need to clarify what we are actually talking about here and what anyone would "GAIN" by being a whistleblower....we need to also define just what exactly "Whistle blower" means in this context, and what if any "whistles" are actually being blown, or if this is something else entirely.In AC's case, I know personally know several (5 actually but only three well) former NJ gaming comm employees who unequivocally state that there is VERY little active, WEEKLY oversight of casino operations (where there used to be 24/7 365 days a year oversight...)   I know far more current, and former, casino employees in AC who attest to the same thing.......Can someone tell me when people and casinos suddenly became 100% trustworthy, free of temptation and opportunity for theft/fraud/abuse or even "honest mistakes" that formerly were caught by gaming officials?????      Seriously, no one else here finds this at least a little disconcerting????Many of these same people I know also support the concept that AC lumps all machines (slots & Video poker & keno) all together in one class and as such it is universally accepted that Video Poker in AC is just another brand of "Slot action".....the implications of (and for) this are scary to say the least for serious VP players like us members of this forum.    I know what the NJ gaming rules actually say, and I UNDERSTAND what they are supposed to MEAN and how they should be interpreted......despite the absurdly confusing and needlessly vague wording!    Given the absurdly skewed actual play results many of us continue to experience, given the absurd lack of oversight and "checks & balances" now in AC casinos, given the precarious state of business for AC casinos and how survival for them is now no longer guaranteed, it is apparent to me that many (not ALL but a significant number) of video poker games/nachines in AC have been set to deal a number of dud-nonpaying hands far greater than the 55% expected AVERAGE a truly random game would yield, in order to reduce the return% for that particular game/machine far below the typical mid 90s and above for video poker paytables, into a more "Slot-like" range of 90% to 95% (or lower)......Now who (in the universe of casino workers and  gaming regulators) would actually be privy or aware of such "Setting" of VP machines, assuming it is in fact taking place as I theorize, and who would be in a position to talk about or divulge such info to the public?   I submit that NOT many people would have direct first hand knowledge of the actual setting of machines to levels NOT allowed or condoned by official NJ gaming  REGS or NJ gaming officials (when and where they exist and to the extent they still even get involved!!!!)      Indeed the lack of oversight and involvement in this level of casino operations is POTENTIALLY HUGELY problematic as you can see......!      Only the handful of slot techs who actually work on the machines in House would obviously be aware of what the machines are actually set at, and of course the several (2 or 3 maybe??)  casino managers/slot managers who oversee the slot machine / video poker machine inventory for each AC casino would probably be aware of the Video Poker "dud" rate......as would the one or two individuals in each casino who perform the duties of, and/or wear the title of C.O.O.   (Chief Operating Officer)   .... that is it in terms of DEFINITE people who would "know" by virtue of their duties of what we are talking about here......as to who else might know based on simply overhearing or inadvertently learning is impossible to determine.....Now, why have there not been any newsbreaking "Scandals" on the 6 oclock news about this topic?   Maybe because it is not really "news".....maybe because no one really cares....maybe because the people who know about such setting of machines do not think it is wrong, or not "wrong enough" to warrant making a big deal over.......or maybe they care too much and do not want to see AC casino reputation(s) damaged more than has already happened.....or maybe there really are non-disclosure agreements in place for high level employees that have enough "teeth" to frighten even the most disgruntled misanthrope, and even though typical non-disclosure agreements are not binding when laws are broken, this area is sufficiently "gray" to not be clear that a law is being broken  that is serious enough to nullify the nondisclosure deal, or at least enough to scare the crap out of empoyees with potential LEGAL litigation and expenses lasting for years (hey, INTIMIDATION is one of BIG corporations more effective tools!) .....the list is endless as to reasons WHY no one has come forth with "a whistle" to blow.......again, my belief here is that there is no whistle to blow......afterall it is the CASINO business and this is GAMBLING!     What do you expect?    The public comprised of MR & Mrs. John Q Taxpayer  and Mr & Mrs  Ralph T. Churchgoer  and Mr & Mrs  Mike L. Consumer/Parent/Senior Citizen/etc etc    is not going to be surprised by headlines that essentially read "Casino games found to have GREATER Edge over players than previously thought"!In other words, the "whistle" being blown would have to be really BIG, really loud and be of sufficiently high quality "NOISE" right out of the gate for it to attain enough interest and be carried by a credible source (as well as Number of sources) to impact the interested parties.     The "indisputable proof" that jeter  states would need to be brought forth by "whomever" probably does not in fact exist  given the nature of what we are talking about (what would that proof actually be Jeter?)    More and more, I am beginning to realize that whereas Video Poker is indeed much harder to play successfully these days and that this is universally accepted by MOST video poker players,   the actual reasons for this difficulty are systemic (intentional) and built in and ACCEPTED by both casinos everywhere, and regulatory bodies who (in their own existential self interest) recognize that the casinos survival these days is precarious so they (the regulatory boards) cut them a lot of slack and allow such things as making video poker much harder for players and more profitable (or at least  LESS RISKY) for the casinos.

[DaBurglar]

Db, where were you? Although I didn't reply to your invite to meet, I was at the Taj that weekend and hoping to run into you. Maybe next time.

Where do I start, DB, you are on to what I believe is the biggest hoax in AC. As I said before, my wife and I have been playing vp in AC for a long time. Our best year was 44 royals, next year 34 royals and then hovered in the high 20's and low 30's for 12 + years. I have had more days with consistent action on vp machines than I can recount. Many, many days of 2k to 4k + days without scoring a royal then I can remember. We have reaped the benefits of every comp and cashback dollar you could hope to expect. We never paid for anything except room taxes and tips for years. Oh by the way, we were playing just about every weekend every year. I think we have a very good perspective of how variance and payback percentage work hand in hand with the EV's.
So to say this simply DB, FAA & whomever else has spent the same amount of time playing vp in AC, they have witnessed just what I have, diminished streaks, fewer royals and as DB puts it more "Dud" hands than ever before. Not weeks but month after month of nothing on top of nothing. To discount this assessment speaks to me that you may be a sometime player or one that is comfortable with your loses.
I don't want to come off too strong here but we should all be trying to pull together our forces to try and discover just what may have happened rather than trying to debunk each others assumptions. I agree with DB that eliminating oversight in the casinos has more than likely contributed to this condition we all face. We all need to write to our political representatives and ask them to investigate what might amount to fleecing the paying public who attend these establishments in good faith.

In closing I can say that, in the day, I was exposed to all of the good vp players in multiple casinos who stopped playing as a result of whatever algorithm the casinos were able to employ to the programming of these machines to cause them to react in such a manner. Nice post(s) and welcome to the forum.....I appreciate your input and your courage in expressing your recent results in AC....I have lots of questions for you but I do not want to overwhelm you nor the forum readers either, but for now I would ask if you could expand on your previous PLAY (all the years past when you were scoring several dozen royals a year.....how much total play did that entail?   where exactly were you playing (what casinos)?    What games and what denomination?   Etc etc etc  this will go a long way to answering Tedlarks questions as well.....I do not mind saying, I am a weee bit  envious!  lol     I don't believe I have had more than 25 royals my entire 6 years playing in AC altogether, all machines, all games, all denom!!!!! 

[Tedlark]

I have not seen such a dramatic decrease in my play as you have but I don't play in Atlantic City either.Res ipsa loquitur.


FAA you should try to pick a phrase that better suits the point you are trying to make.

[Tedlark]

DaBurglar more head spinning nonsense from you. If a whistleblower came forward and a news channel were to dig into possible tampering abd fraud by an Atlantic City casino (or casinos); this would be nationwide news.

On the other hand, maybe these same news outlets have looked and found no story. This would mean no tampering , no fraud, no Sh**!!!

With regard to your claims that: "something is askew with video poker in Atlantic City" I don't believe that anyone has told you anything of value. AT ALL.

I chalk your claims (and everyone else here with the same outlook) of casinos tampering with video poker machines in Atlantic City to be nothing more than sour grapes and sour grapes makes for bitter wine.

[vpnutnj]

Hmmm, let me think, did I think that a business such as a casino would allow this activity or knowingly set up their vp to produce this many royals for a healthy 12 years? I think not. Did I think that the machines were malfunctioning to produce these results? I think not. Did I see others hit royals absolutely. Did they hit as many as we did, no. I can only attribute this to playing as close to optimum strategy as humanly possible. People used to call me lucky and I won't dispute that some of my good fortune can be attributed to luck but luck does not last continuously for 12 years.
DB, We primarily played in the Plaza. We both have been and continue to be signature players with the Trump properties for a long time. We started playing quarters and then gravitated to .50 & 1.00 machines. The royals I describe span all of these denominations. We started playing DB 9/7 and ended up playing DDB 9/6 for the majority of our play.
The last 2 years of the Plaza were horrible. Not only for us but for all of the legacy players that were left there and we are friends with all of them. So we did not experience this drop-off of performance for all of the machines alone.
The Plaza had more full pay games and prided themselves for having the highest paybacK percentages in AC for years and years. One day I can't remember which year it was possibly 2010, they fired the CEO and replaced him with another guy recently removed from a Gulf Coast casino. The new CEO, Eddie, cut all of the pay schedules on the vp machines. He called it a corporate decision. We regulars took offense to this provocative action and threatened to leave but didn't figure in that that was just what they were looking for. I believe Eddie was brought in to submarine the Plaza into bankruptcy, which he did. We the legacy patrons were courted by the Taj during the Plaza's last 2 years. They tried ever tactic under the sun to get us all over there. We all held out until the last breath was breathed by the Plaza. Today we are all over at the Taj only as a result of familiarity with the brand, the comp system and the fact that we are still treated like royalty. All of this does not discount the fact that all of what we experienced in the last 2 years of the Plaza's life is realized in even a greater degree in the Taj.
One more thing before I watch the series, Resorts was also trying to get the best of the best of the Plaza's players. Our Plaza host moved over to Resorts and gave us the Red Carpet card for 2 cycles hoping too lure us in. Our first trip and the first machine I played in the building I hit a royal, .50c 2k 9/5 DDB and for the entire weekend I enjoyed just what I had experienced in the Plaza during the good years lots of straights, flushes and quad's, as you call them. I said to another Plaza player that happened to be there that weekend that the "fox is back in the hen house". That didn't last long. Machines were removed in subsequent weeks. It was hard to get a straight and flush and forget a quad. It resembled the Plaza in it's dying years.
I am not a conspiracy theorist nor do I wear my lucky shorts when I go gambling. I am simply sharing what our experience has been with what seems like a response by an organization realizing a downturn in the economy which translates to their direct profits.

[Tedlark]

So when you were winning at a return better than other players you didn't think about it and thought it was the norm. But now that you may be losing at a return that you may not be used to, you think about it and something may be amiss?