"The way to stop a Bad Guy with a Gun...
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DaBurglar
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"The way to stop a Bad Guy with a Gun...
...is a Good Guy with a Gun!"So goes the hackneyed, ridiculously simplistic argument for citizens everywhere carrying firearms, and for having ARMED security, or actual police officers at schools nationwide.The pro gun "lobby" is flailing right now....and one huge reason is the video/story you are about to see....you simply will NOT believe your eyes (unless you've already heard about this latest revelation and aspect of the Tragic events in Parkland Florida!)https://www.yahoo.com/gma/fla-school-of ... es.htmlThe Broward County Sheriff (Steve Israel) stated he was nauseated and sick to his stomach when he saw the video showing the FULLY ARMED, FULLY TRAINED School Duty Officer "hiding" for over four minutes while the little bastard Nikolas Cruz ran around the school with his AR-15 shooting at will helpless children. That's right, the "Good Guy with the Gun" sat and HID until the shooting had ceased from inside the building. The School Officer who hid instead of doing his job and trying to confront and stop (i.e. KILL) the assailant, one "Deputy Scott Peterson" was suspended, but he immediately "retired" instead, because apparently he had accumulated just enough time on the job to retire.....that's right, this coward is now collecting full benefits. It gives me no satisfaction to call this man a coward, and I understand exactly why Sheriff Israel was nauseous watching the video showing Deputy Peterson hiding and NOT doing anything to address or confront the shooter....Deputy Peterson could definitely have wound up DEAD too, and no doubt he was fretting in part about being "under gunned" by the little turd with the assault Rifle! It's still no excuse at all for his inaction, since the officer signed up for this type of risk, and his role and presence at the school was exactly for JUST this precise scenario!!!!There is absolutely NO perfect, end-all be-all solution to this uniquely American Problem of School Massacres via Firearms. But there are definitely simple common sense steps that can be taken to LESSEN the likelihood and make it harder for a perpetrator to do this.....what valid reason is there for NOT taking the steps we can to make a difference NOW?
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billryan
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It's easy to judge someone in cases like this.
No matter how one feels now or envisions themselves acting heroically, the simple truth is until you are in the moment, you simply don't know what you will do.
This guy disgraced himself and will have to live with himself for the rest of his life.
I honestly feel bad for him. I won't be surprised if he eats his gun.
No matter how one feels now or envisions themselves acting heroically, the simple truth is until you are in the moment, you simply don't know what you will do.
This guy disgraced himself and will have to live with himself for the rest of his life.
I honestly feel bad for him. I won't be surprised if he eats his gun.
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DaBurglar
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It's easy to judge someone in cases like this.
No matter how one feels now or envisions themselves acting heroically, the simple truth is until you are in the moment, you simply don't know what you will do.
This guy disgraced himself and will have to live with himself for the rest of his life.
I honestly feel bad for him. I won't be surprised if he eats his gun.
Well, no doubt the sentiment you just expressed (quite well I must say) is at least part of the reason the Sheriff feels nauseous. He clearly knows and empathizes with officers facing gunfire, but even more clear is his ultimate disgust and embarrassment at how this officer ultimately acted ( or failed to act) to do the JOB he was paid for years and years to actually do....a job for which the scenario that actually happened he was trained and prepped over and over...a job from which he now is going to retire with full benefits (including medical, a big deal nowadays)!
While it's true you never really KNOW just how someone will act under such circumstances, we do know that in general most officers do their best to serve and protect and would have gone in and tried to stop this individual and at least mitigate some of the death and damage! As pundits have stated, the deputy (Peterson) had both expert training, intimate familiarity with the building ("field of engagement"), and tactical surprise on his side (the shooter was not aware that an officer was assigned and actually on duty at the school!) You aren't going to get a more favorable scenario if you're that officer assigned to that school!
No matter how one feels now or envisions themselves acting heroically, the simple truth is until you are in the moment, you simply don't know what you will do.
This guy disgraced himself and will have to live with himself for the rest of his life.
I honestly feel bad for him. I won't be surprised if he eats his gun.
Well, no doubt the sentiment you just expressed (quite well I must say) is at least part of the reason the Sheriff feels nauseous. He clearly knows and empathizes with officers facing gunfire, but even more clear is his ultimate disgust and embarrassment at how this officer ultimately acted ( or failed to act) to do the JOB he was paid for years and years to actually do....a job for which the scenario that actually happened he was trained and prepped over and over...a job from which he now is going to retire with full benefits (including medical, a big deal nowadays)!
While it's true you never really KNOW just how someone will act under such circumstances, we do know that in general most officers do their best to serve and protect and would have gone in and tried to stop this individual and at least mitigate some of the death and damage! As pundits have stated, the deputy (Peterson) had both expert training, intimate familiarity with the building ("field of engagement"), and tactical surprise on his side (the shooter was not aware that an officer was assigned and actually on duty at the school!) You aren't going to get a more favorable scenario if you're that officer assigned to that school!
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FAA
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most officers would have tried to at least mitigate the
death and damage! Deputy (Peterson) had
both expert training, intimate familiarity with the building ("field of
engagement"), and tactical surprise on his side (the shooter was not
aware that an officer was assigned and actually on duty at the school!)
You aren't going to get a more favorable scenario.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Epic fail. Poor SOB couldn't hand in his resignation papers fast enough. Peterson Principle.
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DaBurglar
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The latest update to this unfortunate development is there are now four additional deputies who arrived very early in the unfolding of the massacre and they too dallied and stood around instead of seeking to engage... there are two local law enforcement departments involved, the Coral Springs police, and Broward county sheriff's office.... the FBI and state police are now investigating and it may be sometime before we know the full real story. What's indisputable though is the one officer assigned to the school to stop such attacks failed on an epic scale.
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Chicagoan
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I always laugh when armchair quarterbacks explain how they would have been a hero if only they had been there.
They weren't there --- the "cowardly" deputy was.
Until recently, the protocol for this situation was for a law enforcement officer to await reinforcements or even SWAT, while maintaining an observation position outside the building. That changed as the school shootings started multiplying, and now officers are trained to enter the building and engage the shooter, regardless of how many or how few law enforcment officers may be present.
So, there is some question as to how much recent training a 30-year law enforcement veteran who is assigned as a school resource officer really had. Even though children of course are vitally important, most departments simply do not take their best officers off of the street and assign them to school resource duty.
All of that said, as a former military officer I can tell you that there is nothing more difficult for the human brain to do than to order the human body to risk death by single-handedly entering a hostile firing situation. It is something that is extremely difficult to do. This is one of the main reasons for highly disciplined unit cohesion when encountering a hostile firing situation, because it is remarkably easier for a soldier to move into danger if he is doing it alongside his comrades, knowing that he is suppporting them and they are supporting him.
Virtually every military psychological study has shown that a soldier who is alone with no support will almost always hestitate or delay entering into a hostile firing situation. There are some outstanding and amazing heroes who take single-handed action against hostile positions, but these are very rare --- rare to the point that these few soldiers usually end up with the Medal of Honor.
There are literally dozens of things that could have been done to stop the Florida school shooter --- many, many missed opportunities. That the school resource deputy did not enter the building and engage is but one of those things, and he alone should not shoulder the blame.
I will remind you that this deputy has been called a coward by the president of the United States for not acting; yet the president of the United States had 8 long years of eligibility to enter the draft and help save lives and to become a hero. Instead, the president took the cowardly way out, with student deferments and a bone spur on his foot.
They weren't there --- the "cowardly" deputy was.
Until recently, the protocol for this situation was for a law enforcement officer to await reinforcements or even SWAT, while maintaining an observation position outside the building. That changed as the school shootings started multiplying, and now officers are trained to enter the building and engage the shooter, regardless of how many or how few law enforcment officers may be present.
So, there is some question as to how much recent training a 30-year law enforcement veteran who is assigned as a school resource officer really had. Even though children of course are vitally important, most departments simply do not take their best officers off of the street and assign them to school resource duty.
All of that said, as a former military officer I can tell you that there is nothing more difficult for the human brain to do than to order the human body to risk death by single-handedly entering a hostile firing situation. It is something that is extremely difficult to do. This is one of the main reasons for highly disciplined unit cohesion when encountering a hostile firing situation, because it is remarkably easier for a soldier to move into danger if he is doing it alongside his comrades, knowing that he is suppporting them and they are supporting him.
Virtually every military psychological study has shown that a soldier who is alone with no support will almost always hestitate or delay entering into a hostile firing situation. There are some outstanding and amazing heroes who take single-handed action against hostile positions, but these are very rare --- rare to the point that these few soldiers usually end up with the Medal of Honor.
There are literally dozens of things that could have been done to stop the Florida school shooter --- many, many missed opportunities. That the school resource deputy did not enter the building and engage is but one of those things, and he alone should not shoulder the blame.
I will remind you that this deputy has been called a coward by the president of the United States for not acting; yet the president of the United States had 8 long years of eligibility to enter the draft and help save lives and to become a hero. Instead, the president took the cowardly way out, with student deferments and a bone spur on his foot.
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FAA
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expert training, intimate familiarity with the building ("field of
engagement"), and tactical surprise (the shooter was not
aware that an officer was assigned and actually on duty at the school!)
You aren't going to get a more favorable scenario.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'll take my chances. We'll see how this trio played it.
engagement"), and tactical surprise (the shooter was not
aware that an officer was assigned and actually on duty at the school!)
You aren't going to get a more favorable scenario.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'll take my chances. We'll see how this trio played it.
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stevel96a1
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it sickens me that everyone calls this man a coward. how dare you. i would love Love to put you or the business man in his shoes and go from there. id ask you how it feel to go in without know how many shooters there are? hows it feel have a bulls eye on your back each step towards the shooter you take how it feel knowing ypu lost the advantage right off the bat engaging him(s)? before you judge getting shot in the foot can leave you crippled for life or death in he gut. the man proceed with caution as anyone with common sense i dont believe military and officers get paid enough to do that type of work. i dont blame the officer nor guns i blame the individual. kalkata to poorest city in india hardly any murders there
are we all human or notif everyone feels so bad why does everyone flee from terror? under guns or not? unarmed robbories, bullies, rapists, happen every day in NYC and then everyone says why cant we stop it? well you have your answer within we live in the real world so before you judge, judge yourself...
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DaBurglar
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Ok, fair enough, you feel the school officer (Peterson) was not a coward and acted reasonably...you are just as entitled to feel that way as those of us who lament the fact that he had a real, bonafide chance to stop, or at least limit the Carnage. I understand all that info about how difficult it is for people in general to react and think under threat from gunfire....and I agree the whole situation is terrifying and unfortunate. I do not enjoy feeling that this guy, Peterson was a coward...and if the facts of this particular situation were different, I'd be inclined to feel differently.
But, as I stated previously, this was one of the main, primary reasons for even having this guy there, to deal with precisely what happened, a live shooter in the school. If his time on the job, as you imply, had made him slow and soft and ineffectual, then whose fault is that? Obviously though, someone believed he could still do the job, and if Peterson himself felt he was inadequate then shame on him for collecting a paycheck and benefits for a job he couldn't do...but the facts are, he stayed hunkered down for nearly five minutes while he heard the shots, over and over, and the screams...after a minute or so, once it was obvious that the shooting was NOT coming from outside, he should have cautiously entered and at least tried to engage the little bastard...if nothing else, he might have seen and prevented the shooter from nearly escaping by spotting him as he tried to melt into the crowd.
I agree it's absurd for president bone spurs to mouth off and make ridiculous claims that he'd charge in even un armed. But things are different when children are involved, and this officer was charged with protecting children.... it's an unwritten rule, adults always try to save children and sacrifice themselves for children's sake... that's universal among all species of life, so yeah the guy failed miserably in that light.
Another thing though, you unwittingly did in your argument, is prove my real point in making this thread, as indicated in the title. Pro gun enthusiasts have always stated the way to stop such jerks as Nicholas Cruz is to have exactly what this school had, a good guy with a gun...but according to you, that is not the case, and I agree! You also invalidated the argument now being put forth that arming teachers en masse is the answer...but if a trained officer couldn't summon the courage to deal with this crap, how does a young 20something female armed with a pistol do it???? At best you have just as much uncertainty...
You are correct though, many many mistakes were made beforehand to allow this to happen, but the blame still belongs mostly on the person who did the deed, Cruz. His purchase of an assault rifle stands out as the most ridiculous element prior to the actual act...suppose he "only" had a handgun instead, even a 9mm semi auto? It's highly doubtful he could've done as much damage, but still bad enough...it's just too easy to get guns in this country.
But, as I stated previously, this was one of the main, primary reasons for even having this guy there, to deal with precisely what happened, a live shooter in the school. If his time on the job, as you imply, had made him slow and soft and ineffectual, then whose fault is that? Obviously though, someone believed he could still do the job, and if Peterson himself felt he was inadequate then shame on him for collecting a paycheck and benefits for a job he couldn't do...but the facts are, he stayed hunkered down for nearly five minutes while he heard the shots, over and over, and the screams...after a minute or so, once it was obvious that the shooting was NOT coming from outside, he should have cautiously entered and at least tried to engage the little bastard...if nothing else, he might have seen and prevented the shooter from nearly escaping by spotting him as he tried to melt into the crowd.
I agree it's absurd for president bone spurs to mouth off and make ridiculous claims that he'd charge in even un armed. But things are different when children are involved, and this officer was charged with protecting children.... it's an unwritten rule, adults always try to save children and sacrifice themselves for children's sake... that's universal among all species of life, so yeah the guy failed miserably in that light.
Another thing though, you unwittingly did in your argument, is prove my real point in making this thread, as indicated in the title. Pro gun enthusiasts have always stated the way to stop such jerks as Nicholas Cruz is to have exactly what this school had, a good guy with a gun...but according to you, that is not the case, and I agree! You also invalidated the argument now being put forth that arming teachers en masse is the answer...but if a trained officer couldn't summon the courage to deal with this crap, how does a young 20something female armed with a pistol do it???? At best you have just as much uncertainty...
You are correct though, many many mistakes were made beforehand to allow this to happen, but the blame still belongs mostly on the person who did the deed, Cruz. His purchase of an assault rifle stands out as the most ridiculous element prior to the actual act...suppose he "only" had a handgun instead, even a 9mm semi auto? It's highly doubtful he could've done as much damage, but still bad enough...it's just too easy to get guns in this country.
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DaBurglar
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Let me reemphasize a couple things.... I really do not like feeling the way I feel and I wish that there had been some real effort on the part of those there to counter the threat.... Anything!!!
Second, I support gun ownership for those who deserve them and have demonstrated the responsibility necessary to enjoy the right of bearing arms. Having sensible limits and rules/laws in place regarding gun ownership is precisely what common sense dictates...no civilian needs an assault rifle! This really is the essence of the whole debate, the line between having the right to defend oneself versus allowing such weapons that exceed any and all sense of self defense and only exist to inflict as much offense as possible! And it has nothing to do with possibly defending oneself against the government or tyranny...besides, civilians are no match for the 4th armored division, the 82nd airborne, nor the F-15!
Aside:. If conservative right wing Republican gun owners are so afraid of the US government possibly coming to take away their guns, why do they all consistently vote & support massive increases in defense, thereby making the very threat all the more unmatchable, unbeatable, and overwhelming?!?!?
Second, I support gun ownership for those who deserve them and have demonstrated the responsibility necessary to enjoy the right of bearing arms. Having sensible limits and rules/laws in place regarding gun ownership is precisely what common sense dictates...no civilian needs an assault rifle! This really is the essence of the whole debate, the line between having the right to defend oneself versus allowing such weapons that exceed any and all sense of self defense and only exist to inflict as much offense as possible! And it has nothing to do with possibly defending oneself against the government or tyranny...besides, civilians are no match for the 4th armored division, the 82nd airborne, nor the F-15!
Aside:. If conservative right wing Republican gun owners are so afraid of the US government possibly coming to take away their guns, why do they all consistently vote & support massive increases in defense, thereby making the very threat all the more unmatchable, unbeatable, and overwhelming?!?!?
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