"IF YOU BELIEVE IT'S RIGGED, WHY PLAY?"

[OTABILL]

Furthermore; I was responding to your INACCURATE statement that "Indian Casinos" are not subject to gambling regulators.

My post was made to try and stop readers who may have been mislead by your INACCURATE statement.

Ted is THIS STATEMENT INACCURATE ?:
When an Indian casino has a compact, they can also include VLT (centrally served) devices in addition to their class III devices. They may do this when they wish to have more devices than the compact dictates for class III devices they are allowed to have. Furthermore, their class III devices can be centrally served.
THANKS TED

Your statement is inaccurate. In Arizona, Native American casinos can have Class 2 (VLT) machines without a compact. They need the compact to operate class 3 machines. Assume the same in other states. See: https://gaming.az.gov/class-ii-and-class-iii-faq

[asteroid]

When you have a problem at an Indian casino, try contacting the state regulatory body with which that casino has a compact (if they have one), and they will refer you back to the casino for resolution stating that the casino oversees such matters themselves. In contrast to a state with a gaming control board where gambling is legal on non-sovereign land in all parts of the state where you can call that gaming control board in order to get a resolution to an issue. Lawyers won't even take cases against Indian Casinos since it is futile (lawsuits against individuals must be sought).

[asteroid]

Furthermore; I was responding to your INACCURATE statement that "Indian Casinos" are not subject to gambling regulators.

My post was made to try and stop readers who may have been mislead by your INACCURATE statement.

Ted is THIS STATEMENT INACCURATE ?:
When an Indian casino has a compact, they can also include VLT (centrally served) devices in addition to their class III devices. They may do this when they wish to have more devices than the compact dictates for class III devices they are allowed to have. Furthermore, their class III devices can be centrally served.
THANKS TED

Your statement is inaccurate. In Arizona, Native American casinos can have Class 2 (VLT) machines without a compact. They need the compact to operate class 3 machines. Assume the same in other states. See: https://gaming.az.gov/class-ii-and-class-iii-faq

That's what I wrote - this is what I meant by "they may do this when they wish to have more devices than the compact dictates for class III devices". The class III devices require a compact. Additional Class II machines do not require one.

[tech58]

Very interesting subject since my home casino is Indian.
However wading thru the murky mish-mash of the last few pages has left me confused.
No dissing intended to any and all since i confuse very easily.

My casino has a statement on the wall that they are Federally regulated, and "NOT STATE REGULATED"
Cap's are boldly on their plaque, i believe because they are pissed off at the State for violating a previous pact when they allowed casinos in Detroit.

I would very much like to know where i can find info on Who is "guarding the chicken coop"?
I have heard they have had previous violations of some type. Not sure what.

My main point of confusion is about the RNG and how can i know if it is legit.
Is the manufacturer of the machine regulated and verified?
Can a casino alter the RNG or any other part of the machines controlling "chip"?
Who controls and checks a casino? Where i play it seems to be the Feds. which makes me shudder to think about,since government agencies do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING EFFECTIVELY OR EFFICIENTLY!
A lot of furious re-programming of VP seems to be happening. If this can affect the RNG how would we know?

The pay-tables are the key factor we can see, the RNG is not.

I have kicked this problem around on previous threads and learned a bit but still these questions persist. Maybe it's just me.

[Jstark]

It wasn't the states idea. The voters wanted them and put the issue on the ballot. If i remember correctly, it barely passed.

[asteroid]

I would very much like to know where i can find info on Who is "guarding the chicken coop"?
I have heard they have had previous violations of some type. Not sure what.

My main point of confusion is about the RNG and how can i know if it is legit.
Is the manufacturer of the machine regulated and verified?
Can a casino alter the RNG or any other part of the machines controlling "chip"?
Who controls and checks a casino?

1. state and federal gaming bodies will just refer you back to the Indian casino when you have an issue
2. class II games can be added to an Indian casino's floor - a compact just restricts the number of class III games on the floor. I.e. The class II games are not regulated (they are not part of the compact).
3. Regardless of whether centrally served games are fair or not, it is now easier to change settings (like RTP) on them than ever since a tech doesn't have to go out on the floor to change things, and, at a press of a button the games can be changed back to default if there is a surprise inspection (which I don't think can ever be a surprise - I believe inspectors have to give some type of notice).
4. The mere fact that your casino can simply declare that they are not state-regulated despite their compact with the state and then continue to operate, speaks volumes about the ability of the state (Michigan in this case) to regulate them.
5. From the article https://www.wired.com/2011/07/ff-scammingslots: "hiring a local to write a software-cracking program called IGT Quad Clone, which allowed Cabrera to rip the software from any IGT memory card to a Windows-based computer, using a standard USB connection." Who knows if copying software, altering it (decompile it, change the code, recompile it and serve it) and then serving it out to a bunch of machines on the floor is prosecutable on sovereign land - remember this is not the United States, it's its own country. That's why a compact is required between the two countries (the United states and the Indian state where the casino resides). If altered software is being used, I would think it would be pretty easy to switch back to the default software to serve to the floor machines if desired.

So the answer to your question "Who is 'guarding the chicken coop' ?" is effectively "the casino" if it is on sovereign land even though on paper it is "regulated" (LOL).

[DougJ]

If you have any issues at Native American casinos, you will be interacting with the casino itself and tribal police, depending on your "issue."
Had a job transfer to Los Alamos National Laboratory almost 5 yrs. ago, so my spouse and I lived ON the Pueblo of Pojoaque, in the tribe's casino hotel, which was affiliated with Hilton. We lived there for almost a year before moving out of the hotel. The 60,000 square foot casino was in the basement of the hotel, so a elevator ride down from our hotel suite. If you ever wondered what it might be like to live for a year with a casino just five floors down, well . . . . that's another topic.
I played strictly video poker at the tribal casino, with mixed results. I learned A LOT there.

Without a doubt, the Pojoaque tribe was "in charge". Period. While we were living there, machines started disappearing off the casino floor. We discovered that the Pueblo was refusing to share its' slot revenues with the State. So, the Governor reacted, and threatened the slot machine makers with pulling their licenses to do business in the State if they continued to support Pojoaque Pueblo. (hello there IGT). Meanwhile, the tribe continued to operate its casino as if nothing was amiss, and the tribe even threatened to retaliate by installing toll booths on the State Route that led up to Los Alamos Lab, since the highway was erected on Pueblo owned land.

You can Google this story for more details . . . my point is: Pojoaque tribe just held out longer than any other Native American tribe in the state in terms of negotiating its compact.

Last tidbit: instead of asking for room or food comps (didn't need them) while living on the Pueblo, I negotiated for a comped Pojoaque art piece by one of the tribal artists. Still love it

[DougJ]

Incidentally, South Point hotel here in Vegas co-operates the new Sports Book there in Pojoaque, the book opening in March of this year.

[asteroid]

If you have any issues at Native American casinos, you will be interacting with the casino itself and tribal police, depending on your "issue."
Had a job transfer to Los Alamos National Laboratory almost 5 yrs. ago, so my spouse and I lived ON the Pueblo of Pojoaque, in the tribe's casino hotel, which was affiliated with Hilton. We lived there for almost a year before moving out of the hotel. The 60,000 square foot casino was in the basement of the hotel, so a elevator ride down from our hotel suite. If you ever wondered what it might be like to live for a year with a casino just five floors down, well . . . . that's another topic.
I played strictly video poker at the tribal casino, with mixed results. I learned A LOT there.

Without a doubt, the Pojoaque tribe was "in charge". Period. While we were living there, machines started disappearing off the casino floor. We discovered that the Pueblo was refusing to share its' slot revenues with the State. So, the Governor reacted, and threatened the slot machine makers with pulling their licenses to do business in the State if they continued to support Pojoaque Pueblo. (hello there IGT). Meanwhile, the tribe continued to operate its casino as if nothing was amiss, and the tribe even threatened to retaliate by installing toll booths on the State Route that led up to Los Alamos Lab, since the highway was erected on Pueblo owned land.

You can Google this story for more details . . . my point is: Pojoaque tribe just held out longer than any other Native American tribe in the state in terms of negotiating its compact.

Last tidbit: instead of asking for room or food comps (didn't need them) while living on the Pueblo, I negotiated for a comped Pojoaque art piece by one of the tribal artists. Still love it

I have no idea how you managed to get any work done Doug ("see you later this afternoon guys, I'm going home for lunch") - great story.

[tech58]

It wasn't the states idea. The voters wanted them and put the issue on the ballot. If i remember correctly, it barely passed.

I believe they originally had a compact with the state and shared some % of revenue but the compact stipulated that no regular casinos would be liscenced in the state. As you pointed out the voters did their thing and as a result voided the compact. Not sure about that.
Other posters say a compact is required for class 3 machines,which they do have exclusively, so maybe that means they do have a compact but only stopped sharing revenue.
All the points about no help from the Feds is troubling but not surprising.

Can anyone say with certainty that the RNG is open to manipulation by the casinos?
If that is the case, and nobody checks them, maybe the change in the flow of the game,which has been noticed by several players here, could possibly be a result of recent re-programming of machines.
VERY CONCERNING!!