Does anyone ever come close to breaking even.

[alpax]

5 Credit 4 of a Kind Full Pay Deuces Wild Play?

[shadowman]

[QUOTE=shadowman] Nope, I've seen other players hit many rfs. One player had 4 in one weekend on the very same machines. Also, I've been playing in a different casino for the last 80,000 hands when the the machines I played were removed. Don't feel too sorry for me. I made money every year.Ok, let me first say that, in all honesty, I"D REALLY LIKE TO BELIEVE THIS.......I am happy when ANY player wins (but of course, MOST happy if I happen to win.)    But EVERY YEAR seems exceptionally lucky....Define the scope and extent of your yearly profitable play, and how you calculate profit (i.e. what gets included in the "plus" column and what gets included in the "minus" column).   How often do you play, what levels, etc.    I'm seriously (and respectfully) asking......you dont have to divulge any "Secrets" (if you have any) but I am sure I am not the only person who is curious about this claim you've made a number of times now on this site.......If you want to say that you are simply a Bob Dancer clone, then so be it, I can accept that  as the end of the story but I've never read where you follow his way of doing things (and calculating profit) in any previous posts.
[/QUOTE]

First of all Dancer is not the original advantage player. Advantage play is really about math and the fact that I have a math degree does make me a little more familiar with the concepts. They key is to find and play where you have an edge. And, the bigger the edge the better. The machines where I failed to get many RFs were positive and there were great player's club programs. My edge was right around 2% so the fact I managed to win even without the RFs is not all that surprising.

The game itself was 100.28% with optimal play. The cash back was 1% (sometimes higher) and the bounce-back freeplay came out to .8%. There were also monthly cash/freeplay drawings, gifts, free food and rooms, etc.

You may wonder how the casino could offer such a good deal. The key is all the other games were required by law to be <98%. Only OEJs was allowed to be over 98% return and it just happens to have one of the hardest strategies to master. Anyone not familiar with the game is likely to play a full 5% below optimum.

[DaBurglar]

First of all Dancer is not the original advantage player. Advantage play is really about math and the fact that I have a math degree does make me a little more familiar with the concepts. They key is to find and play where you have an edge. And, the bigger the edge the better. The machines where I failed to get many RFs were positive and there were great player's club programs. My edge was right around 2% so the fact I managed to win even without the RFs is not all that surprising.

The game itself was 100.28% with optimal play. The cash back was 1% (sometimes higher) and the bounce-back freeplay came out to .8%. There were also monthly cash/freeplay drawings, gifts, free food and rooms, etc.

You may wonder how the casino could offer such a good deal. The key is all the other games were required by law to be <98%. Only OEJs was allowed to be over 98% return and it just happens to have one of the hardest strategies to master. Anyone not familiar with the game is likely to play a full 5% below optimum.Thanks for providing a (non-vague) response to my post....like I said, I am positive I was not the only one curious.The most meaningful thing you said was your choice of the game One eyed Jacks.   This answers many questions......Obviously, if you are disciplined enough to ONLY play that game, with the right paytable and at the casino you describe which offers the seemingly great scenario you describe, then certainly it is possible to run a POSITIVE  end result over the course of the year.    I'd still maintain that to do this EVERY year does require a modest amount of "luck", and you do go to lengths to emphasize how a "NON-ROYAL" stretch of play can still yield the results you experience so you are aware of this issue....but, to your credit, you CLEARLY have done everything to earn positive end results, hence in a sense you "MAKE YOUR OWN luck" as many people like to put it......I will leave it to someone less tactful and with less understanding to bug you about divulging the actual casino you play at.....But now I will address not only you shadowman, but also MANY others here (including Bob Dancer) who like to focus on the so-called  "SKILL" aspect of video poker.   Your math degree aside, the difficulty and complexity of Video Poker is quite simply like anything else in life.....each person/individual experiences the results that he/she is either capable of attaining or simply WANTS to attain.  Their overall goal of playing (i.e. to simply have fun, or to make money, or some combination, or other more esoteric goals) also influences the results they attain.But simply put, Video Poker is NOT that difficult, and the word "Skill" is too often bandied about when in fact all you need is a good memory and the basic ability to do math in your head.  Granted, for some people even this is a stretch, but for most it is not.....and yet the reason more people do not play at optimum levels is simply due to either laziness, complacency or inability to control emotions (or inability to NOT consume booze lol....but still seriously)    it is true....."Skill" implies something truly exceptional.....like the skill of a surgeon, or Baseball player, or Chess player, or Gourmet chef.    Some people, no matter how much they study or how many medical school tests they ace or courses they pass, will never be a "SURGEON" because they cannot master the SKILLS needed to cut into the human body and do what is needed...they can be excellent doctors otherwise, but not surgeons. I can cook many dishes following recipes, and even make something that people really enjoy.  But I cannot truly "CREATE" gourmet, exceptional dishes that bowl people over and provide the basis for a cookbook or even a restaurant.   That is a SKILL most cooks lack.You see where I am going......Video Poker requires discipline, endurance and more discipline.    In fact, in most casinos, if a player is discreet enough, he/she can use a so-called "Cheat sheer" or guide to always tell you the correct play.    So it truly comes down to discipline.......now, granted, many people LACK this needed quality, to attain the results Shadowman (and, I guess, Mr Dancer) attains.    This is why our society is made of the haves and have nots (and everyone in between.)  People often are differentiated by their discipline, or the habits that comprise such qualities.A math degree certainly helps, just Like Billyjoe's extensive experience and education helps, or my own, or Tedlark's persistence, etc.   But the "Skills" (or qualities) neede to succeed at Video Poker, to the extent that it can be succeeded at, are attainable by anyone willing to work at it and be disciplined.   Which then begs the question, well "Why are not more people at least able to break even"?  (a question that includes ME, with my 25 years of experience and a HArvard Degree)      The answer is:  Goals and Objectives, and of course  CHance/Luck.If your goal is like that of Mr. Dancer, to actually MAKE a living doing this, and PRIMARILY this, then you are faced with a formidable task.  Or if your goal is like what Shadowman's apparently is, to "make a profit", then the task is less formidable but still requiring the previously mentioned Discipline and attention to detail without any emotional interference.   The vast majority of players do not fall into either of these categories (even the ones who would LIKE to include themselves in it.)   This category also requires the compliance/coopertation (tacit or otherwise) of the CASINO(s), at which people like Shadowman and Bob play, to allow the player to do what he/she is doing.....and it obviously requires the casinos to continue to OFFER the comps/perks etc that allow the level of "ADVANTAGEOUSNESS" to even exist......and to keep the paytable where it is at so the game of OEJ remains at 100.28.Most peoples' goals howeve, involve vague, confused or nonexistent definitions of a variety of things:   They play for "fun and entertainment", to kill time, to have a vacation(s) where they MIGHT actual earn enough money to pay for SAID vacation....or they play to earn the specific comps we all talk about and compare....or some combination of these things as well as many others I have not mentioned.   In short, the reasons for playing Video Poker can be as variegated as there are people.Where the debate(s) originate is when people (like me even) fail to heed that what it takes to produce results like Shadowman's require someone to STOP being (or doing) what he/she is and simply become something they curently are not.   This is not easy, or even possible, for some people and they cannot accept this.    But it generally is NOT due to their lacking "SKILLS".....it more likely is due to their goals, personality, circumstances, etc.In fact there's something I should have mentioned EARLIER:  CIRCUMSTANCES.    Obviously Shadowman lives close enough to whatever casino(s) he is playing his One eyed Jacks at the advantageous level he is......this may mean he lives in or near Vegas or Reno (or some other Nevada Locale).    Clearly, someone who resides in Caribou, MAine, or Battle Creek Michigan, or Long Island will not be able to duplicate his results without MAJOR changes or efforts that have ZERO to do with Skill.  I currently reside in New England, hence my recent (last 4-5 years) focus on playing in AC.    I could simply play in Mohegan/Foxwoods but I really dislike their overall logistical situation, being in the middle of nowhere in the woods of Connecticut.   I prefer to play in Nevada but it is too difficult right now for me to get there more than 2-3 times a year....I am working on changing that, but NOT simply so I can play Video Poker (i.e. for example, there are many HEALTH benefits for me to potentially move to the Nevada climate...)       If my goal was to MAKE money playing VP, I'd probably say "Screw it" because simply put, there are too many other ways for me to make money that do not involve the uncertainty of gambling.I'd really like to hear from other players on this topic.....EDITED to ADD:    I have encountered a FEW One Eyed Jerks (lol) machines in AC, including a couple in the TAJ, but they are no where near 100.28 The two in the TAJ have a paytable that is identical to a 100.28 return  EXCEPT when it comes to the payout for a WILD royal......on a 100.28 paytable, a WILD royal earns a max coin payout of 1000, but in the TAJ it is only 750 (i.e. 150 to 1  instead of  200 to 1) I am not certain, but I believe the Tropicana AC might have a few OEJ games around...no clue as to the paytable but I'd bet it is also well below 100.28.

[shadowman]

There's not a problem divulging the casino because they have pulled out all the high return OEJs machines. Otherwise, I would not have mentioned it at all.

The casino was Treasure Island Resort and Casino located 40 miles SE of the Twin Cities in MN. They still have the low paying games that you mentioned.

As for skill ... I agree that learning optimal play is not all that difficult, but it is time consuming and requires discipline because one needs to keep refreshing the memory cells. However, being successful is much, much more than learning strategies. It is all about analyzing various opportunities and recognizing good plays. It's also about scouting as good plays come and go. Finally, it is also best for most players to operate under the radar. Advertising good plays generally results in their disappearance. Being greedy can also destroy good opportunities.

[pokerforme]

One if not the best post ever shadowman. People on here demanding to know where others get the advantage are crazy. Do all the homework so you can make a living then give it away for free.....simple crazy!

[EDC1977]

Discipline and priorities. What are your priorities for playing VP? Fun, profit etc. etc. If it is profit, do you have the discipline to play at or near 100% error free? I try to play at that level but know I still make mistakes with penalty cards. I don't have a math background to understand the win/loss and error percentages that affect my return percentage. That said, I try to play undistracted and enjoy my session time. If I turn a profit, it's a plus.

[shadowman]

   Discipline and priorities. What are your priorities for playing VP? Fun, profit etc. etc. If it is profit, do you have the discipline to play at or near 100% error free? I try to play at that level but know I still make mistakes with penalty cards. I don't have a math background to understand the win/loss and error percentages that affect my return percentage. That said, I try to play undistracted and enjoy my session time. If I turn a profit, it's a plus.

Enjoyment should be the first priority. I'm an exception in that I find analyzing mathematics enjoyable. Most people don't. For most people using good strategy can be done without too much difficulty. There's no need to be anal since most games are negative and most folks are going to lose. So, have fun.

[DaBurglar]

Discipline and priorities. What are your priorities for playing VP? Fun, profit etc. etc. If it is profit, do you have the discipline to play at or near 100% error free? I try to play at that level but know I still make mistakes with penalty cards. I don't have a math background to understand the win/loss and error percentages that affect my return percentage. That said, I try to play undistracted and enjoy my session time. If I turn a profit, it's a plus.i think you are being way to harsh on yourself and your abilities.....can you be more specific about your so-called "mistakes" with penalty cards, or any other errors?   The fact that you recognize these "errors' indicates you have the ability to not make them!And what is it that you do not understand about win/loss and error percentages and how they relate to return?   What this boils down to is this:  Shadowman, and people like Bob, are disciplined enough to ONLY play games above 100% at casinos that also offer other things to raise the return.....most of the rest of us simply play whatever the best games available happen to be at whatever casino we happen to be visiting/vacationing at......of course, by "disciplined" I mean that Shadowman, if he ever finds himself in a casino that does not have a advantageous game to play he simply does not play (i.e. walks out, or otherwise avoids the games.)   Most of us do not act this way.....Also, My bad regarding where shadowman plays, I had no idea it was in Minnesota....but it still highlights my point about circumstances.   As for including other "things" (like comps, slot play, freebies etc) when calculating return or profit, everyone probably has their own idea on what is or is not important to include.     I have no problem including free slot play and even comp dollars because, in the casino, these are essentially the same as cash.   But I cannot personally include things like a comped room or free vouchers to a spa or parking etc.      That's just me......