Straight Talk About CS

[daily_double]

[QUOTE=FloridaPhil]
Bob Dancer will never understand the motivation behind CS and I will never authenticate him as the world's greatest authority on recreational video poker play.   He is a successful marketer who has made money playing, writing and teaching others to play video poker, but he knows nothing about today's VP world outside of the high limit room. 

I said it before and I will say it again , we are lucky to have Bob Dancer participate on this website. In his original thread about Phil's obsession , he tells us ALL why he is here participating. My opinion doesn't mean squat, but Phil, I think you are being told that you are giving out bad information about video poker all over this website that a very intelligent and important man in the video poker world probably wants stopped. Cheap strategy does not belong anywhere other than the recreational player forum, in my opinion . There are new players joining this site every day that are going to be misled by an amateur posting this stuff all over the place.

[case]

Alpax wrote:

"FP is looking for quantity of play, whereas I am looking for quality of play. FP plays more in a single visit than I do in both of my bi-monthly visits. The CS is pretty much an artificial nickel denomination while adding more variance to a vp game. People like the swings of DDB, so experiencing the swings of CS can just be thrilling. It has a built in money management mechanism for FP's sanity. So even with $250 a week, most weeks FP will leave the casino with at least a little over $150. On days where quad deuces are hit, it is $50 more for each one per visit. On average, once out of every 6 trips, a $200/$250 quad deuces will hit and FP walks out with profit."


Just a couple things I have underlined. Why do you think people like the swings of DDB? I am one who like the big payoffs on quads but hate the wild swings.The last sentence: So you are saying FB will come home a loser on 5 out of every 6 trips (on average). I was surprised at this number being so high a losing session.

[Tedlark]

There are new players joining this site every day that are going to be misled by an amateur posting this stuff all over the place.

Under this same logic then; me, roveer, Lucky Larry, and others who post pictures of winning video poker sessions may mislead these same new players into thinking that video poker may be easy and very profitable to play. And because of DaBurglar's writings about how bad or skewed video poker is in Atlantic City; these same new players may be misled into thinking the same way.

Edited to add: My point with this post was to mention that players, whether new or experienced, should play with eyes and brain wide open and know that there are risks when playing video poker. This also includes those who may follow Bob Dancer's game plan as well. Bob will be the first to say that but he will also say that following his playbook will reduce the risk but there will still be risk.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=daily double]Cheap strategy does not belong anywhere other than the recreational player forum, in my opinion.[/quote]I totally agree.  Before I came on this website there was no "Recreational Forum".  I was the one who asked for it in the first place.  My reasoning was there are many small budget players on this forum who play the game for fun and want the most bang for their buck..  What we wanted was a place where recreational video poker could be discussed without the burden of math or input from "My way or the highway" experts.  How is telling a small budget recreational player to play only 100% games or not at all helpful to this forum?   If Bob Dancer or some other VP expert came out with his own small budget strategy, I would be all ears. The reason I started posting the CS strategy is not because I wanted to get in a battle with Bob Dancer or his followers.  I did it because I know that  flat betting today's seriously negative expectation video poker games causes people to accumulate huge loses that they will never recover from.  Soon or later these players will quit the game and we all lose.  There is nothing potentially damaging about CS other than to the casino's bottom line. What I care about is other people and I just happen to find a way to enjoy the game without the heartache and wanted to share it.   When this thread is over I will take your advice and keep my CS comments to the Recreational Forum where it belongs.   If someone wants to use Dancer strategies on a seriously negative expectation video poker game, my hands are clean.

[alpax]

Very good post Ted, I agree with you that the valuable part is see all the people perspectives, and everyone is on different playing grounds.



Just a couple things I have underlined. Why do you think people like the swings of DDB? I am one who like the big payoffs on quads but hate the wild swings.The last sentence: So you are saying FB will come home a loser on 5 out of every 6 trips (on average). I was surprised at this number being so high a losing session.



My apologies, I realized I was vague about stating people liking the swings part of DDB. Certainly not many people will enjoy having to go through a bad session of having a quad drought on DDB, the serious player will understand the game is a single continuous run and most recreational players will put much value in today's score.

I might have remembered Vman stating the variance and swings of DDB is closely similar to that of a slot machine. A good amount of people like slot machines, and if DDB can provide a similar experience, it could be one of the reasons it is the most popular video poker game since there are a few more hand outcomes that can result in a significant payout.

In regards to walking out the door a winner or not. I've actually played CS on Fooler Deuces, Airport Deuces, NSU Deuces, and Bonus Deuces Wild; but never on Colorado Deuces (3 for 1 full house) or Beau Rivage Deuces (20 wild royal - 10 5 of a kind - 8 straight flush). The $250 bankroll (used to be $300) starts you off with 12 $20 bills (since then FP came up with Dollar system where you start with 50 $5 bills).

For the poor DW paytables, the $50+ cashout from the $20 start happens about 1 in 4 times.

For the good DW paytables (Airport/NSU), the $50+ cashout from the $20 start happens about 1 in 3 times.

A 4 for 1 payout or better happens about 12% of the time. And if you win the next hand, you keep playing the higher bet until you lose. So the results deviate more towards 5 out of 6 times you are betting single coin and 1 out of 6 times you are betting bigger than single coin.

Take my word for this, it will take a chain of 4 max bet wins of flushes/full house/4oak (it can happen) to kick the balance into the $25 threshold, or a max bet win of Straight Flush/5 of a Kind/Wild Royal to get into the $25 threshold. Phil's bankroll on the CS lets you play more than 5000 hands per day (excluding the potshots), which is a good shot at getting one set of quad deuces at any point of the day. If it lands on the higher bet, it is a happy day for FP. If it lands on the lower bet, it is satisfactory. If it does not land at all, FP is somewhat satisified to be leaving with some money.

[alpax]

If someone wants to use Dancer strategies on a seriously negative expectation video poker game, my hands are clean.


I think Mr. Dancer clearly advised not to play them at all, or even any situation where the player do not have the edge with all things considered.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=alpax]Take my word for this, it will take a chain of 4 max bet wins of
flushes/full house/4oak (it can happen) to kick the balance into the
$25 threshold, or a max bet win of Straight Flush/5 of a Kind/Wild Royal
to get into the $25 threshold. Phil's bankroll on the CS lets you play
more than 5000 hands per day (excluding the potshots), which is a good
shot at getting one set of quad deuces at any point of the day. If it
lands on the higher bet, it is a happy day for FP. If it lands on the
lower bet, it is satisfactory. If it does not land at all, FP is
somewhat satisified to be leaving with some money.[/quote]I have always said my goal was to play all day and leave with money in my pocket.  How many players can say they do that on a regular basis?   I'll bet there are a lot less than we think.By the way, the most common way the counter can reach $25 is when you hit a good string of hands right at the start of a new $20 session.  I quit the $5 bill bet a few weeks ago, $20 with a $50 limit works a lot better.

[AthenaV73]

I really appreciate FP CS on video poker. I'm somewhat new to playing VP, except the handheld ones they had back in the 80's, in my local casino and never gave it much thought to play until I was tired of the ups and downs of slot machines. They don't have the greatest of pay tables either. My profile picture is of a Royal Flush won on pennies. Perhaps I should be ashamed that I could not play with bigger bankrolls, but there is a pride in knowing I had the smarts to even get it. I had less than $5 that started off as bonus bucks. But I felt challenged and entertained and accumulated points. I might play cheaper but I'm way more realistic with my expectations of winning and losing. Now I can say I play for fun, with the hopes to win.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=AthenaV73]Perhaps I should be ashamed that I could not play with bigger bankrolls,
but there is a pride in knowing I had the smarts to even get it.  I had less than $5 that started off as bonus bucks. But I felt
challenged and entertained and accumulated points. I might play cheaper
but I'm way more realistic with my expectations of winning and losing.
Now I can say I play for fun, with the hopes to win.[/quote]Thanks for the comment.  Don't ever envy big bankroll players.  Casinos are not in the business of giving away free hotel suites, expensive meals, airline tickets and all the rest to anyone who consistently takes them to the cleaners.  They do this because they know they are all eventual losers and will recoup their costs many times over.  The fun in video poker is pitting yourself against the machine.  No one always wins, but when you do you have the pride in knowing you accomplished something worthwhile.The CS discussion has moved to the recreational forum.   We don't want to endanger anyone by telling them how to cut their losses. 

[olds442jetaway]

Recently, a person in a long buffet line at the casino asked me who gets to wait in the really short line that I was in. My response was simple. This line is for the people who lose the most money.