Long Term is in The Eyes of the Beholder

[OTABILL]

As I've pointed out many times, My wife and I have been casual recreational player. In the world of VP, there are undoubtedly many more like us. We play for entertainment, socialize and talk with each other, friends or other players while playing. We definitely don't count the number of hands we play. While cognizant of paytables, etc. our focus is having a good time and playing the game (in our case DDB) we enjoy the most.

Pros, APs and other serious players are more focused and have a different viewpoint. In my years playing VP the concept of bankroll has never entered our vocabulary. Discretionary funds set aside for entertainment, be it a concert, ballgame, or night at the casino is our mindset. I bring all this up to point out that there are other perspectives regarding recreational VP.

Given the above, our view of long term is based on timeframe, not number of hands played. As I mentioned several years ago, from 2006 when I first played VP in Vegas (and Laughlin) to date, there is no single hand RF in my accomplishments (my wife had similar results during that timeframe albeit, before we met she had several RFs in trips to Vegas over a 35 years +). Until 2017, we made one to two trips a year of 3 days to a week at a time playing long VP sessions, single handed, $.25, 99% of the time. Did we come out ahead monetarily, no. Did we enjoy are trips, yes. No trips since due to health reasons. It is possible, though I am hopeful, one day my wife and I can take another trip to Vegas and perhaps hit the elusive single hand RF.

The 11+ years for me constitutes the long term. I am sure many other recreational players think the same way vis-à-vis timeframe. I understand where most on this forum are coming from when discussing hands played, and the math. While you may disagree with the view of the long run as a period of time, that is my perspective as a recreational player posting in the recreational forum. All I ask is that if others think the same way and want to discuss this concept they don't be denigrated and insulted for their viewpoint.

[FloridaPhil]

Understanding the viewpoints of others is not something that comes natural on this forum. As you have pointed out, Long Term can have different meanings to different people. Many of the video poker strategy books that have been written were written by professional players. Their statements don't mean as much to someone who only plays a few hands a year. Someone who plays that infrequently may not hit a royal in a lifetime even if they play with an edge.

I quit counting royals years ago. I have had five dealt royals so far. Does that mean I am a better player than you? No. It means I have played more hands. I have played video poker games with a low of 96% odds and a few at Red Rock that were over 100%. Playing better games did allow me to play more hands with my money. I have detected absolutely no difference in my results. I would like to tell you playing 100% games was a gold mine with royals and jackpots happening all the time. Sadly, it isn't that easy.

I hope you and your wife will continue to play video poker. It's great entertainment especially as a couples activity. I hope you get your first royal soon. I was sitting next to my wife when she got hers. It's a great thrill.

[OTABILL]

Understanding the viewpoints of others is not something that comes natural on this forum. As you have pointed out, Long Term can have different meanings to different people. Many of the video poker strategy books that have been written were written by professional players. Their statements don't mean as much to someone who only plays a few hands a year. Someone who plays that infrequently may not hit a royal in a lifetime even if they play with an edge.

I quit counting royals years ago. I have had five dealt royals so far. Does that mean I am a better player than you? No. It means I have played more hands. I have played video poker games with a low of 96% odds and a few at Red Rock that were over 100%. Playing better games did allow me to play more hands with my money. I have detected absolutely no difference in my results. I would like to tell you playing 100% games was a gold mine with royals and jackpots happening all the time. Sadly, it isn't that easy.

I hope you and your wife will continue to play video poker. It's great entertainment especially as a couples activity. I hope you get your first royal soon. I was sitting next to my wife when she got hers. It's a great thrill.

Phil, I didn't mean to imply that I have never hit a single line royal. I have hit a number of Royals over the years here in Arizona and also, in of all places, on a cruise ship. I have posted on some of those before particularly getting a royal holding one card. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I brought up the Vegas/Laughlin reference only because of the irony and the long term context from my perspective. As a recreational player, I make a distinction as to how I, and my wife, consider our VP experience compared to other forum members.

[case]

Long term is defined by the number of hands, not the number of years. But you know that.

Otabill. Maybe in the future Vegas will have a no smoking casino. Also I can see some of the new casinos having a seperate area for non smokers that is completely seperate from the smokers. They have this in Tampa, Biloxi and a few others. Change is coming.

FP. You have the same odds of hitting a royal flush on a 96% game as you do a 100% game. Playing 100% games at Redrock only gave you more hands and chances. Long term you would do much better at Redrock then Florida. But you know this.

[Vman96]

It's ok to refer to streaks in terms of time, but it doesn't give a good impression of how good/bad that streak is.

This can obviously be explained by extreme examples. For instance if someone says they haven't hit a royal in 30 years of play, but they also only play 500 hands of VP on average in a given year, then I would expect them to be royalless too.

I know I complained during my 35 month royalless streak, but I also knew that I hadn't played enough hands to be super unlucky in that time frame. Probably about 120k hands. Now if I played as much as wildman or olds, I would probably be questioning it was rigged without a royal in 35 months.

Now I wouldn't expect you to know the exact number of hands you played, but you probably could roughly estimate. Over 11 years, maybe 110 days in Vegas/Laughlin. Maybe 800 hours playing if you played "long days". The casual 400 hand/hr player would hope for a royal about every 100 hours. So im sure you've had some pretty poor luck with that streak. :(

[FloridaPhil]

As a recreational player, I make a distinction as to how I, and my wife, consider our VP experience compared to other forum members.

This is something I have been attempting to point out since I have been on this forum. Most Recreational players don't look at the game the same way a professional does. This is not a flaw in their thinking. Someone who plays video poker strictly for profit needs to play the game differently than someone who plays for entertainment. Both players want to win, it's what they are willing to do to achieve it that's different.

This doesn't mean a Recreational Player can't benefit from learning how a professional plays the game. If I play single coin VP on a 96% game to stretch my bankroll, the odds are what they are. If I make errors, they become worse. If there is a better machine two rows away and I know the difference, I gain something by moving to that machine. We should teach players what the odds mean and how to recognize the difference. We should teach them to play according to the computer strategy and urge them to practice. What they decide to do after that is up to each individual player.

[billryan]

You might start by learning the proper.terms. Are the odds improved with a better payable? You seem to that finding better payable tables will improve the players odds. I 've never understood why you think that.

[billryan]

I can't think of anyone here, with one exception, who doesn't think people should learn basic strategy, and only one who regularly posts hands they got by ignoring BS. Only one who brags about his spouse routinely ignoring basic strategy and hitting extra royals. Only one who makes posts and threads that need almost constant corrections.
But I digress....

[OTABILL]

Long term is defined by the number of hands, not the number of years. But you know that.

Otabill. Maybe in the future Vegas will have a no smoking casino. Also I can see some of the new casinos having a seperate area for non smokers that is completely seperate from the smokers. They have this in Tampa, Biloxi and a few others. Change is coming.

FP. You have the same odds of hitting a royal flush on a 96% game as you do a 100% game. Playing 100% games at Redrock only gave you more hands and chances. Long term you would do much better at Redrock then Florida. But you know this.

Thanks for your response. Were this the Strategy Forum I would agree as that hands played is the definition used by pros, APs and serious recreational players. I believe most recreational players would, like myself, would think in terms of the accepted dictionary definition of long term as "occurring over or involving a relatively long period of time." (Merriam Webster) or "Occurring over or relating to a long period of time" (Oxford). Until I joined this site and forum I never thought of long tern in terms of hands played. Thus the "eyes of the beholder." It's all how one perceives recreational play.

Unfortunately, our not going to Vegas is a little more complicated than just the smoking. Hopefully, we will be able to go at some point in the not to distant future. However, we probably will play more bingo than VP given the layout of the non-smoking bingo room vis-à-vis the non-smoking area at Red Rock where we stay and almost exclusively gamble while there. Thanks for your thoughtfulness.

[OTABILL]

It's ok to refer to streaks in terms of time, but it doesn't give a good impression of how good/bad that streak is.

This can obviously be explained by extreme examples. For instance if someone says they haven't hit a royal in 30 years of play, but they also only play 500 hands of VP on average in a given year, then I would expect them to be royalless too.

I know I complained during my 35 month royalless streak, but I also knew that I hadn't played enough hands to be super unlucky in that time frame. Probably about 120k hands. Now if I played as much as wildman or olds, I would probably be questioning it was rigged without a royal in 35 months.

Now I wouldn't expect you to know the exact number of hands you played, but you probably could roughly estimate. Over 11 years, maybe 110 days in Vegas/Laughlin. Maybe 800 hours playing if you played "long days". The casual 400 hand/hr player would hope for a royal about every 100 hours. So im sure you've had some pretty poor luck with that streak. :(

Good points. Quite honestly, I have no clue as to the approximate number of hands I've played, particularly in Vegas. We are always moving around, doing other things, etc. I have not kept a record of the number of days we have been there, some of which have been spent with family and doing things other than playing VP or bingo for that matter. Neither my wife nor myself have ever tried to calculate the portion of our visits playing VP or how fast/slow we play our hands. When we sit close to each other, we are continually chatting thus slowing our play down.