Michigan Casinos

[tech58]

A fine example of the problem with this site.

A thread is started to seek info. and contains 8 positive contributions, and also 2 negative and disruptive BS posts !!

The pattern continues LOOK IT UP!

[Tedlark]

A fine example of the problem with this site.

A thread is started to seek info. and contains 8 positive contributions, and also 2 negative and disruptive BS posts !!

The pattern continues LOOK IT UP!

It took you 3 whole years to post in this thread. If the thread were so meaningful to you it shouldn't have taken you that long.

[tech58]

A fine example of the problem with this site.

A thread is started to seek info. and contains 8 positive contributions, and also 2 negative and disruptive BS posts !!

The pattern continues LOOK IT UP!

Latest count: 8-3

[applepear86]

Most comments in this thread about Soaring Eagle are accurate.
Good pay tables and lots of good machines
For example, full pay JOB at 5c-$10, Bonus Poker and DDB at even better payback can be found.

The catch is not so pretty.
VP players. as of 4/17/23, can no longer play their earned FP, bonuses, or points, on VP machines!!
The only option is their extremely tight slots! Joining those poor lost souls would be the ultimate insult!

This latest round of dissing VP comes on the heels of their doubling the coin-in to $2/point to earn a tier point.
Putting VP players at a 4-1 disadvantage to slotees who get 2 points per $1 coin-in.

I have been top card at SE for 12 years.
Will not be as of July.

SE is a glorified bingo hall lol. Their solution of "Throw the serious five and six figure VP players under the bus because we will still have the nickle and dime denom elmer fudds who will play our new 7/5 bartop DDB for a 5 dollar mailer" goes hand in hand with how they went from the top casino in the state 20 years ago to being a doorstop for Firekeepers and Detroit. Their high limit VP collecting cobwebs is their loss.

[dinghy]

SE is a glorified bingo hall lol. Their solution of "Throw the serious five and six figure VP players under the bus because we will still have the nickle and dime denom elmer fudds who will play our new 7/5 bartop DDB for a 5 dollar mailer" goes hand in hand with how they went from the top casino in the state 20 years ago to being a doorstop for Firekeepers and Detroit. Their high limit VP collecting cobwebs is their loss.

If vpfree2 is accurate, Soaring committed vp armageddon. They're reportedly down to only ten 99% machines, all at one bar, and only up to $1 denom. That's after they crushed the earn rate relative to slots, and restricted fp redemption to reels only.

Just curious what you would have done differently if you were in charge.

In general, I think casinos are unreasonably hostile to vp. They only want slot action, but fail to appreciate that slot players are often attached to vp-playing husbands as a package deal.

[tech58]

dinghy, vpfree2 info. not accurate, at least not yet.
SE has shot themselves in the foot with some dumb decisions. The points change, awhile back, put VP at
a 1-4 disadvantage to slotees for point related comps. And then to tell VP players that we can earn our
premium play, bonuses, and other FP on VP but we cannot play it there was the last insult that caused
many top card people to disappear. Gated Diamond parking is empty, VP machines are way down, as the bartenders will testify.
Hotel occupancy is in the tank. I get free room offers above and beyond my regular nights.
Their new wiz-bang Ruth Chris had 6 people at prime dinner time last night.

But the good VP pay-tables are still there. Bar #1 has all new machines but 9-6 JOB 25c -$2 still there. The other 3 bars still have old bar-tops with good JOB from 5c -$1 and Bar #2 has NSUD and DDB at 99.73 or maybe slightly better. Not sure not my game.

Many free standing banks of Bally,s and IGT slan-tops thru-out the place.
So the machines are still there but the players are voting with their feet.
As I stated before i have backed way off. When my FP fades away not sure what we will do.

You posed a very good question in your post.
What would I do differently?

My view of what they are doing is trying to identify, and weed out, Advantage VP players.
Easily done with the computers list of positive coin-in coin-out players on VP only. Tack on hand-pays
and, like magic, the culprits jump right out at you. We are "hoist on our own Petard".

If i were running the business i honestly might do the same damn thing, and make the same mistake.
The mistake being driving out a multitude of players peripheral to the "culprits". Wives and friends who play other games. For example keno. The games being mostly on Machines that have VP on them their shutout too.
A lot of babies wnt out with the bath water.

[dinghy]

vpfree2 info. not accurate

Oh that's good. The batch of vpfree2 updates must have been generated by one very confused person, or the editor severely misclicked.

And then to tell VP players that we can earn our premium play, bonuses, and other FP on VP but we cannot play it there was the last insult that caused many top card people to disappear.

This would have required some planning, and not sure the software supports it, but they could have engineered something like a 10% bonus for FP redeemed at a slot. Carrot cake instead of stick.

My view of what they are doing is trying to identify, and weed out, Advantage VP players.

As you correctly note, it's not as easy as they may think to precisely eliminate the malcontents. I guess they need to understand the vulnerabilities of their overall setup -- which they probably don't because they're not APs.

[applepear86]

You both are on point. I think they are trying to weed out players that are barely profitable or unprofitable. Or perhaps are trying to groom vp players into playing their tight nasty 20%+ house edge slots? Either way, they aren't very sophisticated in how they do things. You have to remember who the ownership is, 1,500 or so people in a tribe that get 40 grand a year each. They used to get like 120k, thats how bad their business has been hurt over the past two decades. I think it's partly an issue of them all being like "We want our money every month no matter what!" instead of the long term sustainability of their player base. They don't have sophisticated long term-minded institutional shareholders like MGM international has, it's glorified welfare queens who aren't thinking of the long term, they just want the most money to show up every month in their checking account. So that's what's manifesting, and it's going to hurt their business long term. Ruth's Chris and has-been celebrity singers doing concerts aren't going to change that lol. Saganing is an even bigger joke.

If I were them, I'd turn that back room that was formerly the non-smoking room by Ascend into a giant video poker area like Firekeepers has with a wide variety. They can move those slots in there by where those old tables are that they never use. And maybe turn Ascend into a giant high limit room #2, get more of a variety instead of all the junky games their sorry excuse for a high limit room has. A high limit room with a diverse set of games with good odds is essential to attracting high end players who lose 10s of thousands a year, they don't seem to understand that. They have no adjustable line golden goddess, kilimanjaro, diamond queen, davinci diamonds, cleopatra, etc. that all the degenerates at the detroit casinos lose their minds over and dump their life savings into. No high limit lightning links, a sorry selection of high limit video poker. And now you have to redeem your freeplay at slots if you play only video poker lol. Their only business eventually will be a bunch of people doing 50 cent spins on their junk machines. As far as their player's club, if some people are taking advantage of it, they are in the minority, just leave them be. The unsophisticated players who play very bad paytables who also make holds so bad they lose an extra -5% EV are numerous. Higher end video poker players are some of the most degenerate gamblers in the casino, I'd want them in my building regardless if some walk away with a chunk of money. They have no video poker culture there, you can tell they don't want the other players who are miserable on their slots to know VP exists lol.

Why would anyone who puts a lot of money into play go there when they can play dollar+ denom 9/6 ddb at MGM detroit? You can get free stuff in half of Vegas and elsewhere, whereas at soaring eagle you're going to get a crappy dinner credit and some freeplay you can only use on their lottery-quality junk slots.

The only redeeming part about soaring eagle is some of their full pay games and the really cheap booze if you like your alcohol. And it's cheap to eat too. I only go there to fool around on nickels and dimes and drink/eat. Or I'll go on the 10/6/200 DDB. Also, their pool is amazing if you get a room there. But I don't do any serious play there. The way they gutted my mailers over the years is unacceptable, so I just gave up lol.

[tech58]

ap86, you are also dead on point. You are a very observant fellow and I am not. So I appreciate your comments.
As their fade-out continues we will see what happens.

As far as MGM, the last time I checked VPfree2 they had no good machines. Guess info not correct there either.

[Jstark]

You both are on point. I think they are trying to weed out players that are barely profitable or unprofitable. Or perhaps are trying to groom vp players into playing their tight nasty 20%+ house edge slots? Either way, they aren't very sophisticated in how they do things. You have to remember who the ownership is, 1,500 or so people in a tribe that get 40 grand a year each. They used to get like 120k, thats how bad their business has been hurt over the past two decades. I think it's partly an issue of them all being like "We want our money every month no matter what!" instead of the long term sustainability of their player base. They don't have sophisticated long term-minded institutional shareholders like MGM international has, it's glorified welfare queens who aren't thinking of the long term, they just want the most money to show up every month in their checking account. So that's what's manifesting, and it's going to hurt their business long term. Ruth's Chris and has-been celebrity singers doing concerts aren't going to change that lol. Saganing is an even bigger joke.

If I were them, I'd turn that back room that was formerly the non-smoking room by Ascend into a giant video poker area like Firekeepers has with a wide variety. They can move those slots in there by where those old tables are that they never use. And maybe turn Ascend into a giant high limit room #2, get more of a variety instead of all the junky games their sorry excuse for a high limit room has. A high limit room with a diverse set of games with good odds is essential to attracting high end players who lose 10s of thousands a year, they don't seem to understand that. They have no adjustable line golden goddess, kilimanjaro, diamond queen, davinci diamonds, cleopatra, etc. that all the degenerates at the detroit casinos lose their minds over and dump their life savings into. No high limit lightning links, a sorry selection of high limit video poker. And now you have to redeem your freeplay at slots if you play only video poker lol. Their only business eventually will be a bunch of people doing 50 cent spins on their junk machines. As far as their player's club, if some people are taking advantage of it, they are in the minority, just leave them be. The unsophisticated players who play very bad paytables who also make holds so bad they lose an extra -5% EV are numerous. Higher end video poker players are some of the most degenerate gamblers in the casino, I'd want them in my building regardless if some walk away with a chunk of money. They have no video poker culture there, you can tell they don't want the other players who are miserable on their slots to know VP exists lol.

Why would anyone who puts a lot of money into play go there when they can play dollar+ denom 9/6 ddb at MGM detroit? You can get free stuff in half of Vegas and elsewhere, whereas at soaring eagle you're going to get a crappy dinner credit and some freeplay you can only use on their lottery-quality junk slots.

The only redeeming part about soaring eagle is some of their full pay games and the really cheap booze if you like your alcohol. And it's cheap to eat too. I only go there to fool around on nickels and dimes and drink/eat. Or I'll go on the 10/6/200 DDB. Also, their pool is amazing if you get a room there. But I don't do any serious play there. The way they gutted my mailers over the years is unacceptable, so I just gave up lol.

I know of about 1, yes only ONE, person that somewhat regularly plays that $1 9/6 DDB at MGM. And that person only shows up about once every 2 weeks.

I don't play it either, but I also don't play much VP anymore. Much better stuff elsewhere.