Just finished reading Vidoe Poker the Edge by Linda Boyd. Very good book. She does make me ask one question. Everything is random she says, but then shows charts and tables of different states gaming regulations showing minimun and max payouts. How does a machines stay within those min- max payouts and still maintain complete randomness all the time.
Anyone have an answer?
randomness again
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MikeA
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The "randomness" part is the RNG's part in the plot oej719. It pertains to the complete randomness of the shuffle of the cards. It has to emulate what would happen were a person to shuffle a 52-card deck. It cannot be tampered with to insure for instance, that you would never get a Royal Flush if you have a 4-card Royal Dealt.
The "payouts" are controlled by the pay-tables in Video Poker (or at least they damn sure better be!). For instance JOB is considered to be full pay if it is 9/6 though the payout on it is actually 99.8% or something close to 100%. If it were an 8/5 pay table, it would be considerably less.
With slot machines, it is a bit different. They are regulated to insure that over time, they MUST pay back to the players a certain percentage of the coins that are played through the machine. I am not certain what the payout laws are in Nevada...something like at least 70% I think. That number might vary from State to State. Another thing I'm not sure of is whether each machine in a casino is considered a separate entity or whether overall, the "machines" in a casino are considered in total to have to meet the payout laws. I think each machine has to be taken individually for the consideration of the payout percentage.
The "payouts" are controlled by the pay-tables in Video Poker (or at least they damn sure better be!). For instance JOB is considered to be full pay if it is 9/6 though the payout on it is actually 99.8% or something close to 100%. If it were an 8/5 pay table, it would be considerably less.
With slot machines, it is a bit different. They are regulated to insure that over time, they MUST pay back to the players a certain percentage of the coins that are played through the machine. I am not certain what the payout laws are in Nevada...something like at least 70% I think. That number might vary from State to State. Another thing I'm not sure of is whether each machine in a casino is considered a separate entity or whether overall, the "machines" in a casino are considered in total to have to meet the payout laws. I think each machine has to be taken individually for the consideration of the payout percentage.
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shadowman
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Another thing I'm not sure of is whether each machine in a casino is considered a separate entity or whether overall, the "machines" in a casino are considered in total to have to meet the payout laws. I think each machine has to be taken individually for the consideration of the payout percentage.
You are correct. Each machine must meet the requirement. However, in a few states that have found machines where the payback was MORE than is specified, they have grandfathered those machines. In a couple of other states they made the casinos remove machines that paid back more than allowed.
Also, for multi-game machines it is often the average payback that must meet the requirement. Again, I think this varies by state.
You are correct. Each machine must meet the requirement. However, in a few states that have found machines where the payback was MORE than is specified, they have grandfathered those machines. In a couple of other states they made the casinos remove machines that paid back more than allowed.
Also, for multi-game machines it is often the average payback that must meet the requirement. Again, I think this varies by state.
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Ohio Bob
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OK! I understand the rng`s role in Vp and the paytables function. But have less knowledge about slots. MikeA`s statement that slots must pay back a certain percentage over time seems to imply that there could be a point when a slot is actually set to hit? So that if I knew the time peramiters on the machine and only played at the end of the cycle I would win more?
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MikeA
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OK! I understand the rng`s role in Vp and the paytables function. But have less knowledge about slots. MikeA`s statement that slots must pay back a certain percentage over time seems to imply that there could be a point when a slot is actually set to hit? So that if I knew the time peramiters on the machine and only played at the end of the cycle I would win more?
Is there a Mathematician in the House? It's not based on "time". I mean, slots are not set to pay off every "x-hours" or anything like that. Being a programmer myself, I would "guess" that it is based on the "window" of results that the RNG returns. If you widen the window, the machine would hit more often and if you narrow the window, it would hit less often.
By "window" I mean a range of numbers. A result of "1 thru 50" when dealing with a possible range of 1 to 100, would be hit less often than a window of "1 thru 75" (by about 25% over an extended period of time!) At least, that's the way I would program it. By testing and adjusting, you could sample the chip over a virtually infinite number of trials and adjust it to get it within the legal boundaries of the laws.
It is also my understanding that the Nevada Gaming Commission has equipment that can be plugged in to the machines to check these chips on randomly selected machine to verify that the payouts are within the specified tolerance.
<<edited for spillin'...I'm a programmer, not an English Major!>>
Is there a Mathematician in the House? It's not based on "time". I mean, slots are not set to pay off every "x-hours" or anything like that. Being a programmer myself, I would "guess" that it is based on the "window" of results that the RNG returns. If you widen the window, the machine would hit more often and if you narrow the window, it would hit less often.
By "window" I mean a range of numbers. A result of "1 thru 50" when dealing with a possible range of 1 to 100, would be hit less often than a window of "1 thru 75" (by about 25% over an extended period of time!) At least, that's the way I would program it. By testing and adjusting, you could sample the chip over a virtually infinite number of trials and adjust it to get it within the legal boundaries of the laws.
It is also my understanding that the Nevada Gaming Commission has equipment that can be plugged in to the machines to check these chips on randomly selected machine to verify that the payouts are within the specified tolerance.
<<edited for spillin'...I'm a programmer, not an English Major!>>
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Ohio Bob
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MikeA..Ty I think! Guess I`ll just fall back on my usual slot strategy i.e. feed the beast , slap the max play button and move on to the next machine!
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MikeA
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RNG (Random Number Generator)....Think of a jar with 100 gum balls in it that are numbered from 1 to 100. Now, think of a number between 1 and 100. Next reach in and using your dexterity and extreme sense of touch, pull out 10 gum balls. Is your number in that small handful? No? Then put those 10 gum balls back in and grab another handful of gum balls but this time, grab 50? Isn't your chance of finding your number in that handful of 50 much greater than that in the 10 chewy gum ball handful?
That is a simplified method that could be used in slots. I've read time and time again that as soon as you hit the "Spin" or ""Play" button, your fate has been cast. All the spinning reels and video action on the screen is just glitz to make it more exciting.
Now, if I were dealing with one of the slot machine logic chips, I would determine how many possibilities there were to win first of all and that would be my "range". I'd then lay out the number of times for small wins, medium wins and jackpots relative to each other (200 loses to 100 small wins to every 25 medium to every 1 Jackpot for example.) That would make my range 326. So, I'd use the RNG to pick a random number between 1 and 326. If it was below 200, I'd tell the spin logic to display a no-win combination of character blocks on the screen. If it was between 201 and 300, I'd instruct it to display a small-win combination on the screen. And so forth. The key is how you adjust the factor for each win/loss RNG result.
If you've played many slots, you might recall that some pay out BIG but not very often. Some pay out frequently but nearly always pay out minimum wins. Overall though, most machines will pay out about the same percentage of the amount of money wagered on them. All of that would be controlled by how I would adjust those "factors".
That is a simplified method that could be used in slots. I've read time and time again that as soon as you hit the "Spin" or ""Play" button, your fate has been cast. All the spinning reels and video action on the screen is just glitz to make it more exciting.
Now, if I were dealing with one of the slot machine logic chips, I would determine how many possibilities there were to win first of all and that would be my "range". I'd then lay out the number of times for small wins, medium wins and jackpots relative to each other (200 loses to 100 small wins to every 25 medium to every 1 Jackpot for example.) That would make my range 326. So, I'd use the RNG to pick a random number between 1 and 326. If it was below 200, I'd tell the spin logic to display a no-win combination of character blocks on the screen. If it was between 201 and 300, I'd instruct it to display a small-win combination on the screen. And so forth. The key is how you adjust the factor for each win/loss RNG result.
If you've played many slots, you might recall that some pay out BIG but not very often. Some pay out frequently but nearly always pay out minimum wins. Overall though, most machines will pay out about the same percentage of the amount of money wagered on them. All of that would be controlled by how I would adjust those "factors".
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shadowman
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RNG (Random Number Generator)....Now, if I were dealing with one of the slot machine logic chips, I would determine how many possibilities there were to win first of all and that would be my "range". I'd then lay out the number of times for small wins, medium wins and jackpots relative to each other (200 loses to 100 small wins to every 25 medium to every 1 Jackpot for example.) That would make my range 326. So, I'd use the RNG to pick a random number between 1 and 326. If it was below 200, I'd tell the spin logic to display a no-win combination of character blocks on the screen. If it was between 201 and 300, I'd instruct it to display a small-win combination on the screen. And so forth. The key is how you adjust the factor for each win/loss RNG result.
MikeA, I think you got it pretty close to what I would program. I would simply create a probability table. For example, .0001, .001, .0899,. .1., .2, .6 might be the chances for Jackpot, secondary jackpot, small wins ..., etc. The last value would be the probability of losing. Then you map your random number range (say a billion numbers into the range 0-1. This is done by dividing whatever number comes out of the RNG by the largest number allowed in the RNG. Then, you simply find where in the table the number falls and select that result.
Clearly, a real table would be larger with more possbile results and you'd need secondary tables for bonus rounds but this method is easy and allows the programmer to work directly with the probabilities he wishes to assign to various results.
Of course, there's many, many ways to accomplish the same result.
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mrstevequevillon
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the way you describe it mr MikeA it is exactly the way i learned it in a compulsive gambling treatment center...
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The Cracker
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Here's the facts on Slots & RNG's
Myth - Playing MAX coin will increase my "hit" frequency.
Fact - The amount you bet has NOTHING to do with hit Frequency. It only determines the amount you get back.
Example - A 2 coin Double Diamond Machine pays 800 for the 3 Diamaonds on one coin and 1600 for 2coins played. Odds are exactly the same whether you play 1 or 2 coins.
Example - A 2 coin Double Diamond Machine pays 800 for the 3 on one BUT 2400 for 2. That's called "buy a pay" The odds are still the same HOWEVER doubling your bet, triples your payout on the Top jackpot.
The second you put a coin in the slot or if you have credits when you hit the spin button, the determination is already made. Whether you have 1 coin played or 240.
The RNG just constantly runs through the combinations. There is no "cycle " in it. If there were, it wouldn't be random. The amount of combinations depends on the amount of reels and the "stops" on them. Basically if you took a RNG with 10,0000 combinations in it, and took 1 minute to scan all the combinations (they scan it in less than that) If you hit the "spin" button exactly to the nanosecond evey minute, the result would always be different.
It's like if you walk away from a machine and you're down $$$$ for the session and some Bozo with two quarters in a bucket comes in and hits the biggie, we get all ticked off cuz they "stole" our jackpot. Nope, you weren't gonna get it. It's pure luck plain & simple.
Laws vary by state, and each gaming commision oversees the conformity of all the games. The actual minimal payback required by most states is paltry. However, it's all about competition so they gotta payback something or no one will come.
I personally stay away from the .1 & .5 nickel machines because EVERYONE is playing them now and the paybacks are terrible <90%. I also stay away from these HUGE payouts (10K+) coins. I like old school reel spinners, Dbl Diamond, Trpl Diamond, 5X pay, Sizzlin 7's etc.
Myth - Playing MAX coin will increase my "hit" frequency.
Fact - The amount you bet has NOTHING to do with hit Frequency. It only determines the amount you get back.
Example - A 2 coin Double Diamond Machine pays 800 for the 3 Diamaonds on one coin and 1600 for 2coins played. Odds are exactly the same whether you play 1 or 2 coins.
Example - A 2 coin Double Diamond Machine pays 800 for the 3 on one BUT 2400 for 2. That's called "buy a pay" The odds are still the same HOWEVER doubling your bet, triples your payout on the Top jackpot.
The second you put a coin in the slot or if you have credits when you hit the spin button, the determination is already made. Whether you have 1 coin played or 240.
The RNG just constantly runs through the combinations. There is no "cycle " in it. If there were, it wouldn't be random. The amount of combinations depends on the amount of reels and the "stops" on them. Basically if you took a RNG with 10,0000 combinations in it, and took 1 minute to scan all the combinations (they scan it in less than that) If you hit the "spin" button exactly to the nanosecond evey minute, the result would always be different.
It's like if you walk away from a machine and you're down $$$$ for the session and some Bozo with two quarters in a bucket comes in and hits the biggie, we get all ticked off cuz they "stole" our jackpot. Nope, you weren't gonna get it. It's pure luck plain & simple.
Laws vary by state, and each gaming commision oversees the conformity of all the games. The actual minimal payback required by most states is paltry. However, it's all about competition so they gotta payback something or no one will come.
I personally stay away from the .1 & .5 nickel machines because EVERYONE is playing them now and the paybacks are terrible <90%. I also stay away from these HUGE payouts (10K+) coins. I like old school reel spinners, Dbl Diamond, Trpl Diamond, 5X pay, Sizzlin 7's etc.
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