RF On A MG Machine??????

[Frank Kneeland]

Im glad this discussion isnt overtaking my life so much so that I need to put long and winding posts to try and get a simple point across. Why do I play having a belief the machines may not be fully random? Please read carefuly, as it might save a certain someone from making another 5000 word point only a relative would read: I PLAY BECAUSE I LIKE THE ENTERTAINMENT OF SITTING IN MY WHEELCHAIR FOR HOURS OCCUPYING MY MIND WITH A SIMPLE CARD GAME, AND SOMETIMES I EVEN WIN SOME MONEY! Yahoo! I call it fun because it means so little in my or most peoples lives; you may call it a serious, gut wrenching, life-changing, tortuous dose of sleepnessless. I dont care a smidget if the games are random or not because they offer what Im looking for in my spare time, and I most definitely wouldnt get all worked up over a differring opinion or be underhanded in showing timid denigration towards someone the true-believer camp cant get out of their heads.For some reason I had forgotten you were in a wheelchair. So sorry backsider, it must be rough on you. Good luck out there whatever your beliefs, and if you have more fun believing machines are non-random you'll get no argument from me.As long as you're having fun, I guess it doesn't really matter.~FK

[Frank Kneeland]

Ok, Frank, I give up.  The patient is yours.  Work your miracles and do with him what you will. 
I have said all I can say already. Here's a paraphrase.Rather than take any side my stance is learn the math, then decide for yourself, if you want, and if it matters to you. If it doesn't matter to you, believe what you will, but know that you can't be sure of anything without knowing the math, and don't make irrevocable decisions on incomplete information without hard facts.It is totally possible to prove using math that machines are OR are not random. If you have come to your conclusion using anything other than a mathematical analysis, then weigh the information appropriately.  Oh, and know that scientists have identified a massive bias in all humans towards seeing random things as non-random and visa versa.One of my dad's jokes was: Dictionary definition of the word "pull" = force exerted on a door marked "push".From what I've read the human inability to quantify randomness is so bad the new joke should be:Dictionary definition of the word, "random" = Anything people are absolutely certain isn't... ~FK

[backsider]

For some reason I had forgotten you were in a wheelchair. So sorry backsider, it must be rough on you. Good luck out there whatever your beliefs, and if you have more fun believing machines are non-random you'll get no argument from me.As long as you're having fun, I guess it doesn't really matter.~FK
 No problem Frank. I move faster in this thing than some of the chubbies I see at the casinos. Im not a math guy and I think you understand that. I read your book you were so kind to send me and I have to say I was entertained more than educated because of my insufficient math background. I do believe the machines arent completely random, and thats the leading opinion among those I hang out with. But it doesnt really matter to any of us because we just play for fun. I guess New isnt happy but whats "new". Hes long been an advocate of namecalling when he cant force his view upon everybody, even with his "cant quite get it right" dissertations. So he says Im a late night alcoholic patient, only now hell claim he didnt call me an alcoholic because thats what happens when he squirms. We work odd shifts around here right now and the key to the drugs & alcohol cabinet just doesnt seem to be available.  

[mightwin]

Hey Backsider - just because some of us meander through the casino a little slower doesn't mean you can call us chubbies.  Just kidding, I myself like the term fat-tailed (insert word that begins with an "A"), because I've got one now. All the math in the world doesn't help me win a royal flush.  It may calculate how great the chances are, or the odds against. It's still a beautiful sight when a royal flush shows up on the screen in front of you.  It can happen on any machine, any paytable.  It usually is on the one I'm walking by with someone else sitting admiring it. There's another saying that keeps pounding in my head - a broken clock is right twice a day. Some people like Coke, some people like Pepsi.  Without different opinions life would be boring.  Who's to say either beverage choice is wrong. 

[Frank Kneeland]

Hey Backsider - just because some of us meander through the casino a little slower doesn't mean you can call us chubbies.  Just kidding, I myself like the term fat-tailed (insert word that begins with an "A"), because I've got one now. All the math in the world doesn't help me win a royal flush.  It may calculate how great the chances are, or the odds against. It's still a beautiful sight when a royal flush shows up on the screen in front of you.  It can happen on any machine, any paytable.  It usually is on the one I'm walking by with someone else sitting admiring it. There's another saying that keeps pounding in my head - a broken clock is right twice a day. Some people like Coke, some people like Pepsi.  Without different opinions life would be boring.  Who's to say either beverage choice is wrong. I think the more appropriate watch metaphor in this instance would be:A person with one watch always knows the time. A person with two is never sure...I find it interesting that you correlated gambling to a choice in beverages, because the former is something ruled by math, whereas the latter is non-mathematical and governed only by personal choice. They are not similar situations and using similar logic to imbue gambling with personal choice is in my opinion, a huge mistake.Also, neither Coke or Pepsi are considered to be dangerous and addictive.I think it is dangerous to trivialize gambling decisions to pure choice when in gambling there really is only one right way to play (if making money is your goal).Of course people then whip out the argument, "But I only play for fun!" And then, if you question them they define "fun" as "Winning". And then if you question them further, you find they have redefined, "winning" as well.The choice is not between Coke & Pepsi. The choice is between Coke and Arsenic laced with LSD & PCP,  One can choose a pleasant beverage, or poisoning themselves with self deception and hallucination.If you go to just one GA meeting in your life you'll understand the seriousness of this situation. We really aren't talking about soda pop preference.Please when you post about gambling choice try to think beyond what works for you and understand that it's not simply fun entertainment for everyone. It may well be nothing but "fun" for you, but you aren't the only one reading your posts.

[Frank Kneeland]

I was asked to go over the machine checking technique we used to verify that they were random and fair. I'm working on that now, but may be too busy today to post it. I'll try.I'll post it in a clean thread entitled, "The Death of Doubt".Addendum: Sitting down to write this I've decided it would make a great article, so I'll be taking my time to post it and will likely use it in my BJI column. This means it'll take me a day or so and be one of my long article style posts.Thanks for the idea.

[onemoretry]

 
. I do believe the machines arent completely random, and thats the leading opinion among those I hang out with.
 
I have been following this thread (and similar ones) for quite a while.
 
What I do not recall ever seeing is an explanation of exactly why you and they feel that way.
 
Is it a "gut feeling" based on a prolonged series of somewhat abnormal results, or something else?
 

[Frank Kneeland]

[QUOTE=backsider]
 
. I do believe the machines arent completely random, and thats the leading opinion among those I hang out with.
 
I have been following this thread (and similar ones) for quite a while.
 
What I do not recall ever seeing is an explanation of exactly why you and they feel that way.
 
Is it a "gut feeling" based on a prolonged series of somewhat abnormal results, or something else?
 [/QUOTE]Kudos onemoretry.  What an excellent question. I alluded to this earlier when I suggested we look at the process used to make the conclusions and not the conclusions themselves back on page 1 when I said, "What you should look at to sift through this bifurcated and
diametrically opposed advice is the route used to reach the conclusions,
not the conclusions themselves."No one took the bait though, and I had forgotten I said that until you reminded me.I also said, "So there's my advice. If someone tells you something, anything, before
you inculcate it into your knowledge set ask, "And how did you come to
this conclusion?" If there answer is, "by observation" the chances of
them being correct are slim to none where randomness is concerned."I hope your more direct question will be answered, since I'm very curious about this as well.~FK

[LonesomeDove]

I don't want to believe that this site would actually consider having standby brain "coolers" to detour an articulate train of thought, I mean really?  Here's a question for anyone who wants to take a stab at it:  Explain why in a five card deal, or draw, you will never see two cards of the same suit and denomination?  Perhaps whatever makes this so is what actually contributes to a possible winning hand by scientific /mathematical equations?  Who knows?  The main objective is fun and hopefully having some good luck anyway!  Whatever else really doesn't matter, and what would people do if they have all these answers?  Things would continue on just as they have for years.  So I say, sit down, have fun and relax the mind.  Instant gratification is what people crave, and if they don't get it by being lucky, then I think what happens is maybe they'll settle for thinking they have the machines figured out, and think that will be the "win".  Perhaps even a frustrated person's rationalization with themselves and their searching thoughts for any explanation for their feeling ripped-off after losing would mentally and emotionally earn a "settlement" position with themselves.  Everyone knows you can keep playing or stop of your own choosing.  Just my opinion......!!!

[LonesomeDove]

Backsider:  I want you to know that I just stood up and clapped at your response!  I am disabled as well, and at times life can be difficult and overwhelming.  It is for exactly what you posted the very reasons I play, and for hours and hours.  It takes me away from everything for a while, and all the noise and BS disappears.  I can relax, enjoy myself and don't care what anyone might say about my playing.  I call it my "therapy" sessions!!!  Best wishes to you and I hope 2012 brings you as much happiness as you can hold!  Keep on playing, sometimes the mere action of your eyes going from side to side will help you get tired enough to sleep too!