The game is not the same !

[chips]

Hello , I'm back again catching up on the comments. " Same percentage of people today are winning than who won 10 years ago. But it's not the same people " Where does this info come from ? As far as saying the game is tougher -- I started looking at pay tables in the 80's. I do agree the promotions are a big change ---- but why should that change the play ??? " I'm not getting the same results. Chips------

[royal flush]

the paytables have decline leaving few opportunites, which only may be a promotion (usually at higher level games) an advantage play or a progressive making a good play. which shows players must have deeper bankrolls and deep temperment.

[olds442jetaway]

I have talked to over one hundred regular vp players. Most all of them know how to approach perfect play and watch out for bad paytables. Nobody I talked to is holding their own since sometime in late 2010 or early 2011. Funny, in August 2011 Mohegan Sun casino stopped paying points on hundreds of their vp machines. Also any vp machine that seemed to be hot most of the time and had players waiting to play on it disappeared in short order. I remember quite well that one of them was a 5 cent 7/5 job machine that would hit RF's like crazy.   I cannot explain what is happening. I only know that it is happening and it is happening all across the country.  

[ko king]

I have talked to over one hundred regular vp players. Most all of them know how to approach perfect play and watch out for bad paytables. Nobody I talked to is holding their own since sometime in late 2010 or early 2011. Funny, in August 2011 Mohegan Sun casino stopped paying points on hundreds of their vp machines. Also any vp machine that seemed to be hot most of the time and had players waiting to play on it disappeared in short order. I remember quite well that one of them was a 5 cent 7/5 job machine that would hit RF's like crazy.   I cannot explain what is happening. I only know that it is happening and it is happening all across the country.  




I've played the same vp game for about 20 years running, $2 denomination DDB. During that 20 year span I had both high and low points but never lost confidence in the game, I would even argue with anyone who said the game was not random, not anymore. I would point to about 2010/11 as to when I like many players around here began to realize things were different, the paytables were the same but we were getting our buts kicked. I tried to play thru what I thought was just "cold machines" and during that time I couldn't help notice there were fewer and fewer players, the machines never became "hot", it was a steady beatdown. It's 2013 now and I rarely play anymore. For years I used to head to the casino hoping the vp machines would not be full and I could play, it's not like that anymore. I could go right now and there would more than likely be noone playing, if the game is the same why did so many people quit playing is my question. People may be a little slow sometimes but sooner or later facts tend to get in the way, it now cost way more to play the same game I played for over 20 years and that's a fact.

[olds442jetaway]

No more than 20% of die hard vp players left where I play. The casino continues to pull out vp machines and leave in the ones with bad paytables. They will not be happy until only mindless 80-85% slots are left and all vp players are gone. I think they fail to realize this or do and don't care. A die hard regular player can easily cycle through 1 million dollars a year through their machines. Even if they only net 2% from the expert players based on paytables, mistakes, fatigue, sticky buttons, etc., that is 20k a year for them. If nothing changes by the end of the year for me, I myself will have to go back to playing craps which I gave up 10 years ago. (too much smoke, standing, bs, etc. etc.). At least there, unless they ruin that too, I can get close to 100% return. Or the other choice is to not go at all which I hate to do, but they will never suck me into playing regular slots.

[royal flush]

if they can get enough play on the slots why would they keep vp

[ko king]

if they can get enough play on the slots why would they keep vp

Well that's a good question and I'm sure the casinos have done the math. One thing I think they tend to overlook is that many vp players like myself bring other people with us that play other games, slots included. I kid you not the casinos around here used to be packed to the gills, now during the week it's like a ghost town. I know way to many people that used to play vp on a regular basis that will say the same exact thing, it's just not the same. The casinos around here have been laying employees off, cutting back hours on many and done everything they can to hold profit margin. I see no danger of them going out of business by any streatch of the imagination but I do believe they have taken quite a hit and I also think they have gotten exactly what they deserve. The words "limit and control" were actually used by a casino host I was speaking to and while many others will still swear by the game's randomness I just don't believe it anymore.

[olds442jetaway]

I remember when Foxwoods first opened. I think it was 1992. There were lines set up to wait to play a Double Down Stud machine that only had a 97% return. Of course back then, we didn't know all that much about return percentages. They had two large banks of these machines which were always busy day and night. You could cut the smoke with a knife too. So what did they do. Yanked every one out within the last few years. The few they did put back in had the paytables reduced further. On a 6's or better machine that pays 2 for 1 for Jacks or better now pays that amount for Queens or better. I won't touch them now. I agree the casinos deserve to lose every bit of business they have lost and more. I do feel bad for the employees who have had bonuses taken away, benenits cut, pay reduced, etc. etc. etc. I also saw a show once about the lifestyle of some of the higher up Indians in Ct. including gold or gold plated fixtures, fancy pet spas etc. I suppose this is no different than corporate America in general and we will never know the whole story first hand on what really goes on behind the scenes, but it was sickening neverthless.

[ko king]

I remember when Foxwoods first opened. I think it was 1992. There were lines set up to wait to play a Double Down Stud machine that only had a 97% return. Of course back then, we didn't know all that much about return percentages. They had two large banks of these machines which were always busy day and night. You could cut the smoke with a knife too. So what did they do. Yanked every one out within the last few years. The few they did put back in had the paytables reduced further. On a 6's or better machine that pays 2 for 1 for Jacks or better now pays that amount for Queens or better. I won't touch them now. I agree the casinos deserve to lose every bit of business they have lost and more. I do feel bad for the employees who have had bonuses taken away, benenits cut, pay reduced, etc. etc. etc. I also saw a show once about the lifestyle of some of the higher up Indians in Ct. including gold or gold plated fixtures, fancy pet spas etc. I suppose this is no different than corporate America in general and we will never know the whole story first hand on what really goes on behind the scenes, but it was sickening neverthless.

The first casino around here opened in 1992 also, I can remember having to stand outside for over an hour just to get in the door and then you had to wait for a vp machine to play. Up until the last couple of years there was a line of traffic headed to and from the casinos on friday and saturday, now I set my cruise control on 68 and don't have to hit the brakes until my turn off. The paytables around here really haven't changed over the years but the results sure did. I really miss not playing like I used to but it just didn't make sense anymore.

[williejoe]

poor video poker forum posters-----i'm not going to spend any more time attempting to explain on this forum how video poker has indeed changed in the last several years-----i've done that now in several detailed postings-----attempting to explain the workings of the prng algorithms and how these algorithms have been refined so that they have definitely impacted vp play----but still certainly can be validated as beings long-term random and meeting the nevada gaming regulation requirements. lets just say that chips and many other long-term experienced players have noticed this change. so while there are many true belivers on this site that say that if we even suspect that igt might have done anything to effect vp play-----then we are experiencing "emotional trauma" from a losing streak or just don't understan true randomness. don't by this line-----the deterministic random number stream generated by the prng algorithm determins the short term results of vp play-----and there are many, many ways of changing/modifying these algorithms. and, it is highly likely that even in one casino with all igt machines----there will be some machines ( or banks of machines ) that play with different prng program algorithms. by the way---just got back from a four day vp orgy in downtown vegas---had a great time----wife and i both came back winng---her, a lot----me, just a little.