The game is not the same !

[chips]

This is my first post.  I have been visiting/playing/reading this sight for many years. I am 60+. I have been playing VP since the 70"s. I have averaged 3-4 trips to Vegas per year ( conventions ) and I often play in some" Native American Casinos" . Yesterday I returned from an 8 day stay( half on strip-half off ).I have played the same style-same games( BP and DW ) for at least 20-25 years. Up until the last 2 or 3 years I agreed with the RNG side of the argument because I have had more than my share of success. Something has changed. Not only have I not seen any Royals , the 4oak are disappearing.WHATS UP !!!!   Chips

[BillyJoe]

Well, Chips, I do not have any answer for you. I am off to Vegas this week, and I will see how it goes during my stay. I usually play higher volatility games, like TDB, so I have come to expect some poor results from time to time. I only play on The Strip, so the VP pay tables are not strong.
 
I will report back on my results when I return... 

[jazzman12]

You may have been playing the exact same style of games over the last 20 years, but almost certainly you are playing "worse" games now than you were then.While I do not buy into a RNG conspiracy, there has been a broad reduction in the quality of paytables over the last 20 years. This statistically will likely impact the number of royals and 4oak a person will see on a 4-day trip today, compared to one say a number of years ago when the paytables were more favorable, assuming consistency in bankroll.If I am playing 9-6 DDB on a $1000 bankroll, I am almost certainly going to play more overall hands that trip than if I am playing 8-5 DDB. More hands = more possibility to see those nice hits.I believe it seems like vp machines are "tighter" now since these lower overall % paytables are simply impacting total hands played, often causing people to go through their bankrolls quicker, with less opportunity to see those magical dealt hands or dream draws that can often make or break a trip - and that they did actually see a little more often years ago when the paytables were more generous - but it isn't that the odds of getting a royal have changed, it is just less likely to get one playing 10,000 hands as opposed to 20,000 hands.

[chips]

Just the opposite Jazzman--  I play longer sessions and more hands ( I no longer do the rowdy things I did when I was younger ! ha ha ! ) and have more in my wallet than I used to. I started watching paytables closely in the 80's after devouring some of the " expert gambling books" I really don't remember playing BP or DW better than 8-5  which you CAN find today off strip.

[Vman96]

It's also possible this could be your first extended cold streak in 25 years.

If I could only be so lucky...lol

And on strip, good BP/Deuces games are hard to find unless you are playing dollars or more, or are at Casino Royale/Circus Circus...haha

And if something like a 9/5 Bonus game ever exists (>100%, should never exist), I want to know the secret...lol

[DaBurglar]

This has been my argument amidst all the brohaha and distractions and ill will.....the reason I have been B* t c h i n g  abount my abysmal results in AC is that, in my previous 20 years playing VP in places like Vegas, Reno, tahoe and elsewhere, I never experienced the actual DEGREE of cold sessions and non-paying hands that I have lately in AC.   This is not to say I never experienced losing or cold snaps before, of course I did.   But just as the original poster in this thread has stated, "something is just different".....but of course, my recent abysmal play is in AC, and he is in Vegas.   I have fond memories of Vegas and enjoyed playing there up until 2009, and hopefully will be returning soon. But, while the argument about paytables has validity, I personally keep track of my play, and when I compare simple hand totals versus hit percentages, things definitely are worse today in AC compared to any other comparable time period and hand volume of the past.  I think today;s chips just are geared to scramble and deal more CRAP than chips of the past.   They certainly are faster, so who knows.....

[williejoe]

chips, i do agree with you----something has changed in the last few years in regards to vp----and not just the paytables----they certainly have gotten worse. here i won't go into the details of the gaming laws and how the vp machines work----we did this on a series of post earlier this year. i'm also 60+, have been playing vp all over the country for many years----and do believe there has been a significant change in the behavior of vp machines-----no need to invoke conspiracy theories regarding rngs or secondary programming----what is happening is that the prng algorithms, output assignment schems and/or the seeding programs have been refined so as to minimize the predicted occurance of what we see as "hot" and "cold" segments of the number stream. the end results is a "smoothing" of the final output and results of hands dealt by the vp machine. while the final outcomes are still certainly random-----you are less likely to experience the number of shorter term hot streaks you had in the past----but in the long term, in theory, this shouldn't mathematically make any difference. in the real world it does make a difference to the average vp player---and helps the casinos with their overall take on vp games ( i will go into how this benefits the casinos in a later post ). this is because many vp players won't play for the "long term". for you and i who plan to play hundreds of thousands of hands a year, year after year-----this shouldn't impact us-----but for the occasional player---it makes it less likely they will hit 4AsWK on a TBD machine in a four hour session of play. it also makes it less likely you can play a machines for a few dozen hands and determing if it might be "hot" or "cold"-----so all the machines are truly playing "more randomly"----both long and short term.

[DaBurglar]

chips, i do agree with you----something has changed in the last few years in regards to vp----and not just the paytables----they certainly have gotten worse. here i won't go into the details of the gaming laws and how the vp machines work----we did this on a series of post earlier this year. i'm also 60+, have been playing vp all over the country for many years----and do believe there has been a significant change in the behavior of vp machines-----no need to invoke conspiracy theories regarding rngs or secondary programming----what is happening is that the prng algorithms, output assignment schems and/or the seeding programs have been refined so as to minimize the predicted occurance of what we see as "hot" and "cold" segments of the number stream. the end results is a "smoothing" of the final output and results of hands dealt by the vp machine. while the final outcomes are still certainly random-----you are less likely to experience the number of shorter term hot streaks you had in the past----but in the long term, in theory, this shouldn't mathematically make any difference. in the real world it does make a difference to the average vp player---and helps the casinos with their overall take on vp games ( i will go into how this benefits the casinos in a later post ). this is because many vp players won't play for the "long term". for you and i who plan to play hundreds of thousands of hands a year, year after year-----this shouldn't impact us-----but for the occasional player---it makes it less likely they will hit 4AsWK on a TBD machine in a four hour session of play. it also makes it less likely you can play a machines for a few dozen hands and determing if it might be "hot" or "cold"-----so all the machines are truly playing "more randomly"----both long and short term.
   This is an excellent post, one in which I find much similarity and concurrence with many of my observations.   I believe williejoe has offered a very reasonable "middle ground" to help explain my current AC futility.....this is a plausible scenario that does not implicate any type of RNG shennanigans, yet gives credence as well as answers to 'why VP is truly different in most of today's gaming markets, whereby that 'difference' is not simply and solely due to crappier paytables." Again, awesome post and reasoning sir......

[royal flush]

you can thank folks like "bob dancer" whom educated the general public and force the casinos to reduce the number of 100%+ games

[chips]

Hello again, It has been almost four months since my first post. I have continued my "cold streak" as Vman96 described it. No royals and very few 4oaks. As I stated before --I haven't changed-- there is something different going on. Chips