AC Video Poker Imploding

[faygo]

So, you are saying paul admitted to there being secondary programming or didn't you ask that ?

[DaBurglar]

 He never talked about "secondary programming" and frankly, I do not think that such secondary programming is or was ever the issue, nor is it needed to achieve what is actually going on with some of AC's Video Poker machines.   Let me elaborate.....He did not (or would not) delve into any detailed discussion of the tactical aspects of how a casino sets its slot machines or VP machines up beyond saying that the Paytable is not the final say for VP  machines in any given AC casino, because I kept pressing him to explain how (since he is obviously very familiar with Vegas) a player in Nevada only has to look at a paytable to determine the theoretical return on a video poker game, but in AC that clearly is not always the case.      Anytime I took my questions or conversation into asking "what or how" a casino does to get a Video poker machine such as a 7/5 JOB paytable (that is common in many Caesars Properties) to return a percentage that is well below the already crappy level that the paytable implies, such as a percentage near the bottom of the 83% to 99% range (say a 7/5 JOB machine that actually returns 88%)!    How does that happen?    He would simply allude to casinos being able to "set" their machines to return whatever the desired payback % is......as I have stated before in other threads and as other people who have worked in or around casinos in other markets have shared with me, there are options and settings in VP machines where users (casinos) can set the machine to do such things as deal a greater percent of dead hands (among other things).....Obviously in Nevada such options never get used, and I am sure this would be one of the things a gaming agent, if he/she were auditing a machine to check its compliance, would quickly check to determine such..... Paul directed me to contact an NJ gaming attorney named "Lon" if I want specific info on Machine regulations, setup and similar info, and I am waiting to hear back from him.   But one last, interesting thing Paul said (and the kind young lady standing next to him backed him up on this since, as part of her official duties, she apparently files reports and sends agents on audit assignments and things related to actual gaming) is that "checking actual machines" is rarely done since machines became "super technical" about 7 years ago, and that the state of New jersey simply relies on the certification process at the manufacturer(s).... I never got the chance to ask him "What if a casino is abusing setting its machines FAR below the 83% cutoff, how would you know or deal with that?"      if and when I get the attorney on the phone I will certainly float that one at him.... Bottom line here is this:   I have clearly established that VP is indeed regarded as just another rmanifestation of Slots in AC (unlike Nevada which clearly distinguishes the two),  and that there are ways for a casino to influence the return% on a typical VP machine by means other than the paytable....whether a casino chooses to utilize such ways is up to that casino, but it should not surprise us given how robust and versatile today's computer gaming setups are.....

[onemoretry]

 He never talked about "secondary programming" and frankly, I do not think that such secondary programming is or was ever the issue, nor is it needed to achieve what is actually going on with some of AC's Video Poker machines




 I guess I'm having trouble understanding this.  If "setting a machine" so that it does not perform  completely randomly doesn't constitute secondary programming, then what would you call it?

[JT]

What were you playing?   How much were the hand pays?   What do you mean by "6 were the top prize award?   "innumerable" tickets out?   Wtf does that mean??   All off of 200 bonus slot dollars?Frankly I dont think you will mind if I choose not to believe this, but even still CONGRATS!

Nothing like being congratulated and called a liar at the same time.

I started on quarters, and moved up to halves and dollars after the initial $5K hit.   I say "top prize" because they weren't royals -- AWAK on Triple Double twice, 5OAK on AC Joker, etc.   And yeah, it was all off of $200 bonus slot dollars.   

Here's an album of my 9 hand pays: http://imgur.com/a/2Idfj   Looking back, only four were truly "top awards" of 4000 coins.   Sue me.

But I truly lost track of how many non-hand-pay tickets out of $1000 or more I took out of machines, and simply plowed back in or otherwise recycled. And I won't comment on how much I brought home, but it was significant.   

I've done fairly well in my last two trips to the Taj since then, but nothing like that night.   

I even spent the morning of Tuesday July 23 in the Casino Control Branch HQ on Tennessee Avenue talking at length with the only two employees in the entire bulding,  a manager/field agent by the name of "paul" and a younger woman named Beth who seemed to be administrative and a gatekeeper.  This is in contrast to the time back in early Spring when I went to this place and was greeted only by a elderly woman who told me if I had any "Felonies" to report like Assualt, Rape or Drug Dealing to Call AC Metro Police, otherwise I would have to come back when agents were there to discuss my "gaming issues".......I'm sure Tedlark remembers that because he tore me a new one when he thought I was making fun of muggings and rapes when In reality I was illustrating the pathetic state of gaming enforcement and staffing in NJ by reporting what I saw!! Anyhow, "Paul" was extremely helpful and set the record straight on How things work in AC, and I STRONGLY urge VMAN (and anyone else who seems interested in this issue) to either visit the office yourself or try and call them to get the info I received.  They will give you the name and number(s) of any one of their attorneys who will answer ay question that they themselves cannot answer.....its a good deal. I was able to verify with Paul that AC slot return % ranges 83 to 99 by law.   I verified that, as far as New jersey and AC is concerned, Video Poker machines are in fact just another form of SLOT machine.   I then asked paul to reconcile the Paytable odds on a typical Video poker/slot machine with the percentages allowed for slots in general.   He stated very directly and firmly that each casino CAN do whatever they want to do with any given machine, slot, VP or otherwise, so long as it falls at or above 83% return over time to the player.  He then stated that, WHILE IT IS ONLY HIS OPINION, most casinos leave the higher denomination Video poker/SLot machines ($1 and up) as is, they simply keep the paytable odds as the final word, but it is possible they could change this up to from time to time.   With the lower denom Video Poker/slots, its is wide open he said......and if you think about it this makes sense too.    With regular slots, we know casinos keep more of the lower denom revenue than the higher denom slot revenue.  It follows that they would do the same with VP :slots: as well!  Made a whole lot of sense to me especially in light of what i have seen and experienced as of late.

Well, I find it amusing that (a) you quote a "paul" and (b) always put his name in quotation marks... is the name changed to protect the innocent, or are you just inventing what he said?   Moreover, there's plenty of interpretations of what you've quoted he's saying.   

However, what it boils down to is that "Paul" has essentially told you to do what I told you to do months ago: Write a letter to one of the ATTORNEYS there, specifically and politely inquiring as to the specific interpretation of the CCC as to 13:69E-1.28A(g) which requires that Video Poker gaming machines must "1.   Have its theoretical RTP calculated based upon the player exercising optimal strategy during game play, 2.     Disclose optimal strategy to achieve the highest theoretical RTP; or 3. Provide mathematically sufficient information for the patron to derive optimal strategy in order to achieve the highest theoretical RTP."    Then post their response, we'd all love to see it.

When I suggested this to you, you dismissed me out of hand because "you know what their response will be."   But since "Paul" suggested it, it's suddenly a better idea.   So, give it a try, we're all waiting with bated breath to find out what the CCC says, and how the regs could possibly be interpreted in a manner that's inconsistent with their plain meaning.

[Tedlark]

JT, you are my new best friend.

[JT]

JT, you are my new best friend.

Nice to finally feel some love around here!

[faygo]

[Vman96]

However, what it boils down to is that "Paul" has essentially told you to do what I told you to do months ago: Write a letter to one of the ATTORNEYS there, specifically and politely inquiring as to the specific interpretation of the CCC as to 13:69E-1.28A(g) which requires that Video Poker gaming machines must "1.   Have its theoretical RTP calculated based upon the player exercising optimal strategy during game play, 2.     Disclose optimal strategy to achieve the highest theoretical RTP; or 3. Provide mathematically sufficient information for the patron to derive optimal strategy in order to achieve the highest theoretical RTP."    Then post their response, we'd all love to see it.



I quoted this law months ago to him; he completely misinterpreted it. What's sad is, I still think he plays there even though in his mind he thinks casinos have the right to set VP machines as low as 83% without changing the displayed paytable. If he truly believes this, I don't know what is a better red light to stop gambling there.

Also looking at the Revel "loss rebate" debacle, it makes no sense that they changed the paytables if DaBurglar is right. They yanked all video poker >98% soon after that promo started. But if DaBurglar is correct, it would be smarter for them to leave the paytables the same and simply lower the game somewhere into sub 90% return.

[JT]

I quoted this law months ago to him; he completely misinterpreted it. What's sad is, I still think he plays there even though in his mind he thinks casinos have the right to set VP machines as low as 83% without changing the displayed paytable. If he truly believes this, I don't know what is a better red light to stop gambling there.

Also looking at the Revel "loss rebate" debacle, it makes no sense that they changed the paytables if DaBurglar is right. They yanked all video poker >98% soon after that promo started. But if DaBurglar is correct, it would be smarter for them to leave the paytables the same and simply lower the game somewhere into sub 90% return.

No question he does, he keeps complaining about how bad the service is at the Taj and how awful his results are. Well, gee - maybe if you think the games are rigged and they don't treat you well, you might not want to go there....

[JIMDUECE`SWILD]

[QUOTE=Vman96]
I quoted this law months ago to him; he completely misinterpreted it. What's sad is, I still think he plays there even though in his mind he thinks casinos have the right to set VP machines as low as 83% without changing the displayed paytable. If he truly believes this, I don't know what is a better red light to stop gambling there.

Also looking at the Revel "loss rebate" debacle, it makes no sense that they changed the paytables if DaBurglar is right. They yanked all video poker >98% soon after that promo started. But if DaBurglar is correct, it would be smarter for them to leave the paytables the same and simply lower the game somewhere into sub 90% return.

No question he does, he keeps complaining about how bad the service is at the Taj and how awful his results are. Well, gee - maybe if you think the games are rigged and they don't treat you well, you might not want to go there....[/QUOTE]
 That's why my girlfriend and I left the taj and now play & stay at The Borgata. IMO they have the best players lounge in AC.