best play autoholds: blessing or curse?

[Minn. Fatz]

just got back from a session on a Super Times Pay machine that automatically makes the best holds for you. part of me says OK, fine, good, i can get drunk as a skunk and still play 100 percent accurate VP. part of me says this cuts out a lot of my enjoyment from figuring out and executing best strategies.

what do you all think and why?

[Vman96]

Generally I hate it, it makes the game more boring. And it's also a warning sign that it may not be random video poker in most places. What casino was this at? I have never run across an STP unit that wasn't in a jurisdiction requiring random video poker, but I wouldn't past IGT to offer it to Class II casinos either.

[BOOPSAHOY]

Generally I hate it, it makes the game more boring. And it's also a warning sign that it may not be random video poker in most places. What casino was this at? I have never run across an STP unit that wasn't in a jurisdiction requiring random video poker, but I wouldn't past IGT to offer it to Class II casinos either.

It was a few years ago but they had it in Tropicanas high limit room. $1 STP with auto hold. I still checked every hand.

[faygo]

People that play Hi Limit slots would probably like it since all you have to is push a button and watch the reels go round.    

[Minn. Fatz]

What casino was this at?

This was at Fond du Luth in the old Sears building on Superior St. in Duluth, Minn. A bar top machine that also offered several varieties of keno, Ultimate X, and 3-, 5- and 10-play versions of VP. I played 6/5 BP returning just over 97 percent, which given the cap on VP return under the Minnesota compact makes it one of the highest EV machines in the joint; even so I played a single line for nickels. Being at the bar you don't have to worry about an empty glass, if that's one of your worries.

I'm sure it wasn't a Class II machine. Minnesota is promoting electronic pulltabs in hopes of putting a roof on the new NFL stadium but that hasn't brought in near enough revenue -- as everyone involved in the scheme probably knew from the get go. Other than those I don't know of any Class II-type games that are allowed. Yet...

[BobDancer]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer. I never drink at all and being drunk as a skunk anywhere, let alone playing a game that requires concentration, isn't going to happen.In the greater San Diego area, both Barona (NSU) and Viejas (better games than that) have high limit games up to 8/5 Super Aces (99.94%) and Two Pair Joker Wild (99.92%) --- although it's been six months since I was at either casino.My experience is the Super Aces auto-hold is 100% accurate.  I'm not up to par on the 2PJW strategy (it's VERY complicated.) When I played it five years ago I had the strategy down cold. But I haven't played or taught it since then so I'm in no position to judge the accuracy of the auto-hold. In general Super Aces has very few penalty card situations and those they have are quite simple --- so it's easy to see if the auto-hold is accurate. 2PJW is VERY complicated with LOTS of tricky penalty card situations --- so I just don't know how accurate it is.Playing for 5 cents single line and getting blitzed is a completely different experience than playing $5 Five Play Super Aces. Even with the auto-hold, I wasn't bored. Bob

[Vman96]

I played 6/5 BP returning just over 97 percent, which given the cap on VP return under the Minnesota compact makes it one of the highest EV machines in the joint; even so I played a single line for nickels. Being at the bar you don't have to worry about an empty glass, if that's one of your worries.

I'm sure it wasn't a Class II machine. Minnesota is promoting electronic pulltabs in hopes of putting a roof on the new NFL stadium but that hasn't brought in near enough revenue -- as everyone involved in the scheme probably knew from the get go. Other than those I don't know of any Class II-type games that are allowed. Yet...

Yep, 6/5 Bonus STP for nickels is common in a lot of places, mostly because it's "nickels" slash machines outside of NV sorta suck. The 2 "SuperStar Poker" bartops at my nearest casino (Ameristar St. Charles) offers 8/5 DDB w/STP. Better than the 6/5 DDB progressives that surround them though. When setting these payouts casinos also like to ignore the fact that 99% of players play 18 or more nickels/round. That 98% max cap is really BS too; sorry your state sucks like that. My state sucks because I gotta pay for those drinks at the bartops...lol

And yeah, most MN casinos offer Class III slots/VP including Fond-du-Luth, but apparently the "White Earth" tribe still has Class II.

Nice report on gambling in Minnesota:

http://www.northstarproblemgambling.org ... a-2011.pdf

Also, does anyone know where there are Superstar Poker bartops in Vegas that have STP? Preferably for nickels too...lol

[Onenickelmiracl]

I always wonder why casinos don't have perfect holds, since the faster play might be almost enough to make up for money made through mistakes. One thing seems to make sense if people knew one casino had this set-up, they would play there if the perfect holds were free. Especially if someone knows nothing. Maybe taxes and expenses would get in the way, but again I don't know.

[Minn. Fatz]

Playing for 5 cents single line and getting blitzed is a completely different experience than playing $5 Five Play Super Aces.



True enough, just as playing for just over 97 percent EV is completely different from playing for just under 100 percent EV. I'm pretty sure I'd be thanking the autohold if missing a pair from an initial hand like 5 2 9 J 5 -- something I do all too often with or without benefit of alcohol -- would be costing me the equivalent of an hour's wages.

The machine I finally got to yesterday did not have the autohold feature even though it was on the same bank of four bartop machines. Hm. I did pass some time playing Reel Deal VP, which is an 8/4/3/1/1 JB setup that awards a multiplier of 1x, 2x, 5x or 10x for payoffs on 3K or better. I was discussing with my neighbor the proper strategy for hands like AA77x; I claimed it was better to break the 2P to go for the 3K with a multiplier (but haven't calculated what average multiplier one would need for that) while she said she always held the 2P to try for a FH. I was playing fairly slowly -- don't want to gorge the golden buffalo after all -- while she was mashing buttons like crazy.

Which leads me to another topic: people who want to play VP longer / lose more slowly could just slow it down rather than switching to single-coin play. If you're currently playing, say, around 60 hands a minute, slowing down to 12 hands a minute would have the same effect as playing single-coin, besides which you wouldn't give up the max coin-in return for a royal.

[Vman96]

The machine I finally got to yesterday did not have the autohold feature even though it was on the same bank of four bartop machines. Hm. I did pass some time playing Reel Deal VP, which is an 8/4/3/1/1 JB setup that awards a multiplier of 1x, 2x, 5x or 10x for payoffs on 3K or better. I was discussing with my neighbor the proper strategy for hands like AA77x; I claimed it was better to break the 2P to go for the 3K with a multiplier (but haven't calculated what average multiplier one would need for that) while she said she always held the 2P to try for a FH. I was playing fairly slowly -- don't want to gorge the golden buffalo after all -- while she was mashing buttons like crazy.

Which leads me to another topic: people who want to play VP longer / lose more slowly could just slow it down rather than switching to single-coin play. If you're currently playing, say, around 60 hands a minute, slowing down to 12 hands a minute would have the same effect as playing single-coin, besides which you wouldn't give up the max coin-in return for a royal.

Blah, would you like to give the rules of this game in a little more detail? I have never seen this before.

A random multiplier of 1X, 2X, 5X, or 10X? So you aren't even guaranteed a multiplier by making trips or better? And do you know if the game states the multiplier is randomly selected for any hand that qualifies? What I mean is, if you make full houses, will you get better multipliers than trips?

Breaking 2 pair combinations: 2 cards remain in the pair you kept and 45 cards are left to choose that are not the pair kept.

Quads: 1*45 = 45
Trips + Boats: 2*45*44/2 = 1980
Total Trips+: 2025

Total Combinations: 47*46*45/(3*2*1) = 16,215

Probability of Trips+ breaking 2 pair: 2025/16125 = 0.12558

Probability of boating up when holding two pair:
4/47 = 0.0851

So it looks like your play might be better, but you also need to consider the average value of your hand as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming you are "paying" for the multiplier feature because you are playing the following JoB paytable:
800/50/25/8/5/4/3/1/1 = 84.45% before the multiplier effect. You also may be paying extra coins for these multipliers too. If I am understanding the game right, if you paid 10 credits a hand (5 for the base game and 5 for the multiplier), and the game had an average multiplier of 3X (I have no idea what it actually has), then the game would return 95.17%. If the average multiplier was 3.2X, then it would return 100.55%. Obviously the exact structure of the game has a major effect on the return.

Now lets look at the value of an example hand before considering the multiplier:

KK557:
Keep 2 pair: 1.595745
Keep KK only: 1.367993

Now ASSUMING, that the average multiplier is independent of hand strength as long as you get Trips or better (I don't know the rules of this game), multiply the values above by the probability of making trips or better and by currently unknown average multiplier X (maybe given in rules screen, it should be) to see the relative values of the hand.

KK557:
Keep 2 pair: 1.595745*4/47*X + 1.595745*43/47
Keep KK only: 1.367993*2025/16215*X + 1.367993*14190/16215

For your play to be better, the average multiplier needs to be:
1.367993*2025/16215*X + 1.367993*14190/16215 > 1.595745*4/47*X + 1.595745*43/47

0.03503X > 0.262784853839

X > 7.501

So I am guessing she is making the right play.

This is what JB's strategy calculator on the Wizard of Odds would like if you were paying 10 credits a hand and the average multiplier was 3X for trips or better:

http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-pok ... 75-d-1200/

It says to hold 2 pair.



So with the rules as I currently interpret them, yeah, hold 2 pair. Please help me understand this game better. And sadly, I wanna play it now! But if my guess on a 5 credit multiplier wager and ~3X multiplier is right, it looks to be a pain to play properly. Holding 2 to a straight flush, and 3 to a straight sometimes, yuck.


As for the other topic, sure, slowing down on a -EV game equals less money lost. But virtually no one plays 60 hands/min, btw (1 hand a second or 3600/hr). 12 per minute is still relatively speedy. However, one must be disciplined to intentionally wait 10-15 seconds a hand and not be bored out of their mind. Alcohol can sometimes help this, however.