Pay tables mean nothing by tshock

[wildman49]

I found this post and felt all along VP can be chipped up or down. I play at many Indian run casino's and when you play a lot you see things over and over that would not be in the random world. Now one of the casinos I play at years ago was found to be missing Aces in the floor table game Black Jack. ALL the table games was then shut down till a fine was payed. This happened more then once mind you. So I know things are going on there to take in more and more cash. When you see poker machines now empty that you could not get on I can tell you first hand there is a reason and it has nothing to do with random. A pay table on a slot and a pay table on video poker are one in the same. If you hit ABC you get XYZ number of coins. I also play both IGT and BALLY VP and they have the same pay table but the play on them is very different.  I talk to alot of VP players at the casino and have yet to find a VP player that thinks they are all random. Topic: Pay tables mean NOTHING    Posted: 16 Apr 2013 at 12:17pm   By TSHOCKHi All.  I'm new to the forum and just wanted to bring up something that
I've observed over my past year of playing VP.  Pay tables mean
nothing.  I used to think they were important, but not true.  I used to
think that you had to play a 9-6 or better machine or don't play at
all.  Not true.  Its much better to play a machine with a good "chip" in
it than a high pay table machine with a bad "chip".   I'm currently
playing on a group of 8-5 machines that are paying and hitting a lot
better than other machines that are 9-6.  I know that they changed the
"chips" in the 8-5 machines this year vs last year.  During the last
quarter of last year, these machines were absolutely dead.  In January,
all of a sudden the machines were hitting.  It was so obvious that
something changed in those machines (chip).  Conversely, a group of
brand new IGT machines (9-6) that were hitting lots of good hands when
they were first put in play (New machines - January) are now not hitting
at all.  I know from playing and watching that the "chips" must have
been changed on those to reduce the number of good hands.  Anyway, the
bottom line is that knowing from play and observation, what  "chip" is
in the machine is a far better indication of how well you will do. 
Pay tables mean NOTHING!  Whats your thoughts?

[Vman96]

I talk to alot of VP players at the casino and have yet to find a VP player that thinks they are all random.

I would have told you they are random.     I have talked to a lot of players too. At least a few of them have agreed with me. Although I think most players are less confident about it.

[Minn. Fatz]

I'm trying to put myself in the other guy's shoes here. I have some (JB I assume) machines in my casino, some are 9/6 and others are 8/5. I know from my research that more players are going to play the 9/6 machines, and that I'm still going to make money on those as they're just under 100% EV. I'm also going to make money on the 8/5 machines, though fewer players will play those, or fewer knowledegable players anyway.

Why exactly would my clever plan be to rig the machines I know more players want to play so they don't pay off and so fewer players play them, but to rig the 8/5 machines so they pay off more (and I make less money on them) so that more players will play them?

Where I live the usual clever plan is simply enough not to offer so many (relatively) good machines. That way I make more money and don't have to worry about the regulators or whoever coming in and finding out I've rigged the games, which when it gets out is going to cost me an awful lot of customers.

Just sayin'...

[case]

I wonder if tshock will make the same post in another 6 months.

[europa92118]

First of all if you are in a regulated gaming area, the chips are subject to inspection at any time.  The Gaming Control Board can walk in to a NV casino unannounced, pick a machine at random and ask the casino to open it so that the chip can be checked. If it is doctored or illegal the casino can lose their license.  On Indian reservations the rules are much more lax but they still fall under IGRA and the state gaming commission.  While the surprise inspections may not be prevalent as in NV and other licensed jurisdictions if word leaked out that the casinos were "cheating" the loss to them would be far greater than the gain they could make on tinkering with a few machines. i own;t say that cheating has not happened but unless you have played millions of hands (several years very regular play for most people) you do not have a realistic statistical sample.  Over the years I get a letter from the casino (win and loss statement) to give to my accountant for tax purposes. Usually the coin in and out is shown and based on this I can figure out the hands played,etc. When I take all these letters from over the years believe it or not they return is very close to the average return I would get from the machines. Based on my playing ability (close to optimum on JOB, DDB), extremely close to optimum on FPDW, decent but  probably a half a percent off in TDB and DDB (I rarely play the latter). Thus when I evaluate a game/casino I do the following. I shall use The Orleans as an example in Vegas or Barona in San Diego as they both have a lot of 99% machines. I figure I play at 98.5% to 99% for the machines that are 99%-100% thus I analyze the comps, mailers, slot club cash etc and my enjoyment value and go from there.  I am well aware that VP has wild, wild swings and is to be expected.  This great site is an excellent microcosm. I have been 17,000 credits down in some contests/challenegs and have been 17,000 up in others.  I have gone several challenges without even hitting a dirty Royal and today in Multi Streak VP with a 2X multiplier in DWB was dealt 2222A for 12,000 credits thus anything can and will happen.  You can minimize streakiness by playing less volatile games such as JOB rather than TDB. Up to you!

[racertim]

I play at a lot of casinos all over the Midwest and live in Michigan were almost all the casinos are Indian casinos.  I am convinced that many of the Indian Casinos are not your normal video poker machines, They just don't play right..  If you go to a video poker machine with a potential huge pay out like 10 play ultimate X, at a higher demonination  even at .25 which is $25 per pay.. Those machine will average around a winning hand on the deal about every 10 hands many times way higher, 20 hands on a row is not uncommon.  The percent chance of jacks or better on the deal is approx. 23%.  You run into the same thing on 100 play machines  at .25 or better.