IGT GameKing Multi-Game - Casino Card Tracking

[alpax]

I see the majority of video poker games are on IGT GameKing multi game machines. I was wondering if anyone happen to know if the casino is able to track which game you play off of it provided you put in your club card properly before you play.

In addition to various video poker games, there are keno/slots/blackjack all varying in expected return payouts.

If the casino is able to know, does all the play from it goes as the same coin-in rate or do they give lesser monthly mail benefit for full pay Jacks or Better and higher mail benefit for Video Keno?

[Vman96]

Not positive, but I think it could be set either way in terms of bounceback. The different variants could be set to offer different bounceback based on payback, or the machine could offer all the same amount because casino employees would have to do more work to individually set the games. If the bounceback is flat though, I sorta feel bad for the keno players...lol

The machine I play on the most tends to offer 0.5% bounceback and offers 35/8/5 Bonus (99.66%) or 9/6 Jacks (99.54%) at quarters or higher. I haven't tested if the percentage of bounceback would be the same for the worst game offered, 9/6 DDB (98.98%), but I would think it would be.

[olds442jetaway]

I can only give a partial answer here and for one casino. At Mohegan Sun, about 300 vp machines are marked with a small sticker that says this machine does not pay Momentum Dollars. That would hold for all games in the machine including blackjack and keno. They do pay status points however. I am not sure if the machines that do pay Momentum Dollars pay points at different rates based on the game and denominations within the same machine. That is something I may be able to find out however and I will write back if I get an answer. I would think the answer would hold for other casinos as well if they pay out at different rates.

     Edited to add....the information stored in these machines is amazing. Today for example, a novice player assumed the machine stole his entire 25 coin credits and he told the staff he only bet one. This is quite common. A manager went into the history and was able to show the patron the exact bet he made the cards dealt, held, and the result. He was still not happy, but he was the one that hit the max bet button which unfortunately as everyone knows is close to the deal button. I guess we have all done it a few times when not paying attention. Not so bad when you bet 5 instead of one, but 25 hurts for some people and that is the max bet on most machines at Mohegan.

[DaBurglar]

I can only give a partial answer here and for one casino. At Mohegan Sun, about 300 vp machines are marked with a small sticker that says this machine does not pay Momentum Dollars. That would hold for all games in the machine including blackjack and keno. They do pay status points however. I am not sure if the machines that do pay Momentum Dollars pay points at different rates based on the game and denominations within the same machine. That is something I may be able to find out however and I will write back if I get an answer. I would think the answer would hold for other casinos as well if they pay out at different rates.

     Edited to add....the information stored in these machines is amazing. Today for example, a novice player assumed the machine stole his entire 25 coin credits and he told the staff he only bet one. This is quite common. A manager went into the history and was able to show the patron the exact bet he made the cards dealt, held, and the result. He was still not happy, but he was the one that hit the max bet button which unfortunately as everyone knows is close to the deal button. I guess we have all done it a few times when not paying attention. Not so bad when you bet 5 instead of one, but 25 hurts for some people and that is the max bet on most machines at Mohegan.Yes I remember this olds, last time I played VP in Mohegan....I thought it was pretty sneaky and scumbaggish for the casino to set a lot of their machines up to go as high as they do for max bet and to make it soooo easy to sccidentally/ on purpose hit the max bet button.   One reason of many i do not play that much VP at Mohegan, only the occasional POKER tournament or cash game.I think foxwoods is a little better in the way they set up their machines, but given the state of their finances and the fact they shut down large portions of their casino floor during the week to save cost, I do not play much VP there either.....if any casino was going to cheat, Foxwoods would be a likely candidate in my opinion......2.6 BILLION in debt and no resolution in sight!   The tribe's members have lost ALL benefits and most of them are now either on public assistance or working jobs outside the casino because they HAVE to.....very sad.

[olds442jetaway]

Many of the machines at Mohegan do have 25 as the max bet, but they also pay the correct amount for 5 in on the Royal. Many times I am glad they have the option of betting more than 5 depending on circumstances. They have also just added a fifty cent option to the same machines besides the quarter and dollar only option within the same machine. Works for me anyway. What I will miss is when the last of the Double Down Stud machines disappear. They are the only thing keeping me going right now. None of the Draw poker machines have been cooperating at least for me, but the Mrs. has been killing the Multi Streak nickel machines even with the poor paytables on DDB and TDB. Friday night while she was killing one her neighbors both hit Royals on the same bank of machines. I still think there is something to the old theory of an entire bank of machines lighting up at about the same time and then being cold for many hours.
      On a separate note, both casinos may be facing additional layoffs and cutbacks this fall. I noticed the promotions have fallen off at Mohegan and they just closed my favorite non smoking lounge during the week. It had been open as long as I can remember during the week.
      They also have new trick to get around the experience rate they pay to the state for unemployment befefits, but since I don't have concrete evidence of the specifics, I will just comment in general on what some employees and ex employees have told me. It has to do with technicalities on job elimination and qualifications for unemployment benefits or not. In Ct., if you just quit your job, you are not automatically entitled to benefits. It did seem like at least at Mohegan, that this was the slowest summer for them and employees have said the same thing. I haven't noticed a cutback in the cleaning crews or maintenance thank goodness because I will just not play in a pig sty at all. Enforcement of smoking rules continues to be extremely poor except for a few dedicated employees. My complaints in that area have fallen on deaf ears resulting in confrontations with myself and smokers who refuse to move or put out their buts in a designated non smoking area. May have gotten off topic a little here. If so sorry for the rant, but the info may be helpful to some.
One final comment about Foxwoods vs. Mohegan. As far as I know, Foxwoods has no machines at the quarter level that pay in the 99 percent range. Also on some of their machines, you have to play 10 instead of 5 to get paid the correct amount for the Royal. You have to run so much money through the machines at both casinos to get credit for a point on vp, I don't worry about it too much anymore if the machines pay pay points or not. I would much rather have the 99 percent option without points than cycle through 500 bucks just to earn one point to spend on overpriced food or gifts. And the no points machines at Mohegan still ears status points toward tier status which helps with rooms, shows, lounge etc if you are able to hit level 2 or 3 especially.

[alpax]

I appreciate the responses, not a big deal I brought up this since my bounce back has gone down a little $40 to $30. I play on a Game King machine where the Keno returns about 92% and has short pay Video Poker such as 20-12-10 Deuces, 7-5 Bonus Poker, 8-5 DDB. The one exception is the game I do play the 9/6 JoB. I am probably guessing the casino is cutting back a little.

Pretty cool to hear how these Game King multi game machines can keep track of a play session, probably it will take additional effort to equate every player's play to determine bounce back.

In regards to the 25 coin play at Mohegan Sun, I saw the youtube video of a player drawing the last card to a royal flush, I intially thought it was unique/cool to have the ability to play 1 to 25 coins where you will get the full Royal Flush payout after the 5th credit at Mohegan Sun. But I see where the situation can get sticky when people are used to pushing max bet all the time not expecting it to put down a $25 bet instead of the $5 they want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wbI411VZKI

Sad to hear about what is happening at Moheagan Sun from potential layoffs and not offering cashback points on the club card. I know they sponsor the NY Yankees, so I thought they were a casino empire in the East Coast. It might happen everywhere else so I will enjoy VP as long as possible.

[Lucky Larry]

I appreciate the responses, not a big deal I brought up this since my bounce back has gone down a little $40 to $30. I play on a Game King machine where the Keno returns about 92% and has short pay Video Poker such as 20-12-10 Deuces, 7-5 Bonus Poker, 8-5 DDB. The one exception is the game I do play the 9/6 JoB. I am probably guessing the casino is cutting back a little.

Pretty cool to hear how these Game King multi game machines can keep track of a play session, probably it will take additional effort to equate every player's play to determine bounce back......

Based on many discussions with Casino Hosts, Casino Marketing and Casino Administrative staff most casinos base your weekly "free play" on a formula of time played, denomination and or total coin-in the machine to create an Average Daily Play amount. This daily average over a 3-6 month period is then used to determine how much you get weekly. Many casinos also give a cash "return" on your play. There are some ways to help increase your weekly offer.

First, ask questions. Ask multiple casino staff to explain the comps and cash back. We've had to filter many conversations to get correct answers and it varies at each casino. Often staff don't even know themselves so be prepared.

Second, find out when the "official day" is for the casino. One casino may consider a day from 5 am to 4:59 am, another will have a different 24 hour clock start/end. This is important because if you play only a short time on a second day it can kill your daily average. This is often considered guarded, proprietary information. (I once had a long discussion with a casino suit who told me he couldn't tell me the time. So we discussed that since he couldn't I'd just quit playing every night at midnight. He knew he would lose hours of my play $$$$- he left for a few minutes and then came back and under his breath said 2:00 am - turned and walked away.) There are ways to handle this - if we know we are going to play only a short time on a new day, we usually play on one person's card (both of us using duplicates of one person's card) to increase coin-in or we'll play on one of our kid's cards to build up their comps.

We often use this same strategy for entire trips when we start at a new casino. Since play determines cash back and player status, we will both play on whoever's card the room/trip was accounted to for the reservations. By doubling our coin-in often for months/trips we build up our player card status and then build up the other's card for months. This allows us to then both to get better comps.

While casinos are out to make money and they do! The more you learn about the casino system you play the more you will have the opportunity to utilize the system to your benefit. Since comps/benefits are one of the considered pay backs of casino play - use your knowledge to increase your return. BTW: A tipped $ or two and a compliment will often create a relationship with casino staff who can help you maximize your comps.

Best wishes,

[olds442jetaway]

This really is a constant learning process and since nothing remains the same forever, we have to learn all of the new tricks the casino is up to. Sometimes I feel like an employee myself because I am contstantly helping out people that really want to know how the comp system really works. The one at Mohegan Sun is so complicated, very few players even understand it except for the basics. There is one thing though I can't seem to get a clear answer on. Some hosts ans suits state that coming to the casino, swiping your player's card, and maybe just buying a cup of coffee with your points counts as a zero day for play and really can screw up your average coin in. Other suits and hosts will say that coming up and just using points you have earned does not count for anything except if a very specific and long term pattern develops of doing this. The true answer is probably only known by the very top executives and player development people. I suspect the first answer is the correct one though based on what a few of my friends have told me about reductions in their offers just from a visit or two to the casino without playing.

[Vman96]

The end of gaming days are secrets in a lot of casinos? That's annoying.

Cutoff times for Caesars properties were nicely laid out in the "Race to Rewards" rules a couple of years ago. Also casino mailers should tip off to the end of gaming days by the time frames freeplay are valid.

Alpax, they could be cutting back on the freeplay longterm, but it could be other seasonal factors as well. My local seems to be willing to give me free rooms on off-peak months for my typical level of play, but not during the summer.    

And is it possible your coin-in dipped a little too lately? Or do almost always play "exactly" a certain amount?

[alpax]

Based on many discussions with Casino Hosts, Casino Marketing and Casino Administrative staff most casinos base your weekly "free play" on a formula of time played, denomination and or total coin-in the machine to create an Average Daily Play amount. This daily average over a 3-6 month period is then used to determine how much you get weekly. Many casinos also give a cash "return" on your play. There are some ways to help increase your weekly offer.

First, ask questions. Ask multiple casino staff to explain the comps and cash back. We've had to filter many conversations to get correct answers and it varies at each casino. Often staff don't even know themselves so be prepared.

Second, find out when the "official day" is for the casino. One casino may consider a day from 5 am to 4:59 am, another will have a different 24 hour clock start/end. This is important because if you play only a short time on a second day it can kill your daily average. This is often considered guarded, proprietary information. (I once had a long discussion with a casino suit who told me he couldn't tell me the time. So we discussed that since he couldn't I'd just quit playing every night at midnight. He knew he would lose hours of my play $$$$- he left for a few minutes and then came back and under his breath said 2:00 am - turned and walked away.) There are ways to handle this - if we know we are going to play only a short time on a new day, we usually play on one person's card (both of us using duplicates of one person's card) to increase coin-in or we'll play on one of our kid's cards to build up their comps.

We often use this same strategy for entire trips when we start at a new casino. Since play determines cash back and player status, we will both play on whoever's card the room/trip was accounted to for the reservations. By doubling our coin-in often for months/trips we build up our player card status and then build up the other's card for months. This allows us to then both to get better comps.

While casinos are out to make money and they do! The more you learn about the casino system you play the more you will have the opportunity to utilize the system to your benefit. Since comps/benefits are one of the considered pay backs of casino play - use your knowledge to increase your return. BTW: A tipped $ or two and a compliment will often create a relationship with casino staff who can help you maximize your comps.

Best wishes,


Thanks Larry for the elaborate explanation with the comp system. I think I remember reading about daily cut off times on Steve Bourie's American Casino Guide book long time ago, but I have long forgotten about it until I am reminded now. I've noticed now there is a youtube video created for this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/user/americancasinoguide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNyPaPt5PqI

I need to talk to casino hosts and ask many questions of about the comp system, I am sure they will try to avoid answering some of them, but I will see what they can or cannot tell me.

With the 3-6 month average play span, I think it averages out, I started playing VP for a majority play session back in April. The losses from playing slots and non-even money table games were becoming very destructive in the end, thus it can be a factor of the games I played becoming more transititional. But walking out with the casino with significantly less losses these days is a much better feeling, I feel like that might be a slightly bigger win then getting more bounceback.



Alpax, they could be cutting back on the freeplay longterm, but it could be other seasonal factors as well. My local seems to be willing to give me free rooms on off-peak months for my typical level of play, but not during the summer.     

And is it possible your coin-in dipped a little too lately? Or do almost always play "exactly" a certain amount?


It could be a factor that I started to avoid over night hotel stays this year and played on a 4 hour block in the morning (it gets really crazy at nights hardly any vacant spots on non high limit slots/keno/video poker). Recovering from losses from slots/table games, I knew I had to change the way I go about playing. Eventually I will be able to stretch out play sessions if I can preserve my bankroll.

I've read a few articles about Dancer's play style (except I do not have the edge). I played a finite number of hands, 2500 (or 2500-3000 if I am lucky or feel like playing more) max bet $1 denomination Jacks or Better.

2000 hands at $1 max bet = $10000 coin in. 9-6 JoB has 99.54% ER so average $46 loss expected. I got $40 freeplay, along with free lunch (twice a month), and the cashback at 0.05% is $5. Thus I felt I was losing just $1 on average every trip. I think the casinos might have figured me out right away.

I am exploring FloridaPhil's system, I think it is possible to responsibly play longer sessions with it.