RNGs & Randomness - Food for Thought

[onemoretry]

I have read that regular slot machines
do this on a regular basis. As long as the RNG is random and the actual
return is the same as posted on the machine, they may get away
with this.  This could be off the wall thinking, but worth talking
about.                                                   

I don't know about all jurisdictions, but I do know that the Ontario gaming regulation specifically prohibits this.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry]I don't know about all jurisdictions, but I do know that the Ontario gaming regulation specifically prohibits this[/quote]I have no idea if this is happening.  It would have to be done in the programming.  If the RNG checks out OK, what the display shows would be meaningless as long as the monetary result is the same.  I'm sure it would take a gaming programmer to verify this and they aren't talking.   Personally,  I am convinced the games are fair.  The casinos don't need to rig anything to make a profit.  All they have to do is let the game odds and our human tendencies work and they're good to go.

[notes1]

There was a time when the ' near miss' feature was not only used, but approved, by Nevada gaming commission, in slots. I doubt it would pass muster today, but does not mean some casinos(s), does not have some version programmed in it's games. Even if it did not affect the odds, I believe it to be misleading. They would be preying on the vulnerability of some players.

[Vman96]

[quote=Vman96] The other two sites I post more at have occasional complaints about bad luck, but not nearly as much.I don't see any harm in complaining.   Maybe the other forum's players don't admit they lose?  Blaming it on rigged machines is just a way of assigning blame to anyone other than yourself.
[/QUOTE]

I bemoan my bad luck at times too, and it's okay, but I would prefer reading happier stories. And yes I believe the other forums keep their detailed results to themselves more often. But when they do share VP results, they are often in line with what I would expect.




Very accurate assessment. I had a conversation with my casino host the other day who started out as a slot technician for about 15 years. I brought up much the same issue as you are bringing forth here. In so many words he admitted the machines are programmed to keep players thinking that the machine they are on is about to pay off.

In my case, I can't tell you how many times the exact card I needed to complete a royal or the missing card for a four of a kind shows up the first card out of the shoot the next hand. It's uncanny how much this occurs.

But if you wrote the first card down for every hand after a royal miss, I would think you'd only see the card you needed 1 in 52 times on average. We're trained to notice order and patterns, so people will notice if it's the card they needed, a random worthless card, not so much.



I've thought about this a bunch.  I've played video poker for over 10 years and so far have not seen anything that led me to think the machines are rigged.  However, I think this statement may have some truth to it.  I think a game operator could program a machine to "show" a near miss and still be within the regulations if the actual hand was also a miss.  I have read that regular slot machines do this on a regular basis. As long as the RNG is random and the actual return is the same as posted on the machine, I think they may get away with this.  This could be off the wall thinking, but it's worth talking about.  What do others think?






In most states, including Nevada, this is illegal. Every possible winning/losing combination must be available to be chosen.   But a few smaller gaming companies have been caught in the past doing it. Takes a lot of attention for people to notice a difference unless you do it a LOT! VP decks themselves have a lot of near misses naturally built in. Dealt 4 to a royal? You're supposed to miss 46 of 47 times!

[notes1]

Nothing wrong with hearing good news. I just think that if one wants to talk about their big hits or good sessions, why not offer a complete report. Hit a RF, but spent a lot to get it, mention that. Had a winning session, but lost the last few visits, tell the whole story. Do you really believe all of those AP who make claims of success? It is the internet.

Something may very we'll be outlawed, but when did that ever stop everyone/anyone from doing it. It is correct to remind all that the odds are against us to hit the big hands. That does not mean that a venue(s), there may be more than randomness to overcome.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Vman96] Dealt 4 to a royal? You're supposed to miss 46 of 47 times![/quote]This is a perfect example of how video poker math can lead you astray.   Anyone who has played video poker for very long knows that missing a royal by one card is a fairly common occurrence.   It is so common that my wife and I have a running joke about it when we play.  We never go more than an hour without one of us saying "Missed it by one!" (again).  A casual player may conclude that the game owes you a royal every 47 of these hands. As we all know this doesn't come close to happening in real life.Mathematical odds can only tell you how "likely" it is that something will happen.  They are of little value when applied to the machines you are playing as the RNG does whatever it's going to do over the time you are playing it.  It would take billions of hands and as many lifetimes for everyone's actual results to even out and come close to the posted odds of the game.Strategies that rely on math are the best we have, but they are not guaranteed and betting bigger just magnifies this issue.  You can tilt the odds in your favor by playing positive games.  By playing computer perfect hand strategy you can hold the odds to their posted level, but you can not rely totally on math to win.  Pure luck is a much bigger part of video poker than some folks want to believe. I believe the best way to enjoy video poker is to realize there is a cost to play this game and that no strategy can guarantee you will be a winner.  Play the game, enjoy yourself and your comps, but don't get hung up by chasing some goal that others claim to attain.  If you make a profit, you've been luckier than most and you should be thankful for it.  Math does not owe you anything....

[olds442jetaway]

     I am really beginning to wonder if pseudo rng is what the casino is using. Most know, in the last couple of years, I have had 2 stints where royals have come more than 500k hands apart on single line games. This year, I am heading rapidly into a similar situation. Up until last night, I had 235k single line games this year without a royal. I did have one early in Jan. I played a real marathon last evening with a couple of short breaks. This time though, I played a 5 line bonus deuces wild game on spin poker. The reason I played the game is it pays 800 for 1 with just a quarter bet. Anyway, I played 5 lines at about 600x5 hands an hour equals 3,000 hands an hour for a 12 hour period and whopping total of 36,000 hands. NO ROYAL. Luckily, I hit quad deuces a couple of times and was also dealt deuces with an ace that generated a W-2G. I only ended up a couple of hundred due to the extremely long dry spells, but the point I am making is you can add another 36k hands to that 235k total this year without a royal. That puts me now up to 271k hands in round numbers without one. I feel the probability of this happening along with the other two episodes is off the charts. Not that it can't happen, but what is going on? Strategy that has been played is close to perfect and I only played about 5 hunches in total out of all those hands last night.

[olds442jetaway]

Nothing wrong with hearing good news. I just think that if one wants to talk about their big hits or good sessions, why not offer a complete report. Hit a RF, but spent a lot to get it, mention that. Had a winning session, but lost the last few visits, tell the whole story. Do you really believe all of those AP who make claims of success? It is the internet.

Something may very we'll be outlawed, but when did that ever stop everyone/anyone from doing it. It is correct to remind all that the odds are against us to hit the big hands. That does not mean that a venue(s), there may be more than randomness to overcome.

     Most who have read my posts on winning and losing over the years will see just what notes is talking about. I think this helps the novice and regular player get a sense for what is going on and can even explain why similar things are happening to them. The last thing I want to do is post all of the jackpots and leave out the rest. A new player could easily get sucked into thinking how great vp is and easy to win at. Like Phil, I play for enjoyment and of course some of the side benefits. Everyone likes to win, but over time one must realize there will be many more losing sessions than winning ones.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=olds442jetaway]A new player could easily get sucked into thinking how great vp is and easy to win at.[/quote]Well stated.  Absolutely no one, no how beats this game all the time.  The best you can hope for is to enjoy yourself and have fun.  If the cost isn't worth the pain, quit and find something else to do with your time and money.  If you find yourself a winner, count your blessings because losing is just around the corner. 

[Vman96]

      I am really beginning to wonder if pseudo rng is what the casino is using. Most know, in the last couple of years, I have had 2 stints where royals have come more than 500k hands apart on single line games. This year, I am heading rapidly into a similar situation. Up until last night, I had 235k single line games this year without a royal. I did have one early in Jan. I played a real marathon last evening with a couple of short breaks. This time though, I played a 5 line bonus deuces wild game on spin poker. The reason I played the game is it pays 800 for 1 with just a quarter bet. Anyway, I played 5 lines at about 600x5 hands an hour equals 3,000 hands an hour for a 12 hour period and whopping total of 36,000 hands. NO ROYAL. Luckily, I hit quad deuces a couple of times and was also dealt deuces with an ace that generated a W-2G. I only ended up a couple of hundred due to the extremely long dry spells, but the point I am making is you can add another 36k hands to that 235k total this year without a royal. That puts me now up to 271k hands in round numbers without one. I feel the probability of this happening along with the other two episodes is off the charts. Not that it can't happen, but what is going on? Strategy that has been played is close to perfect and I only played about 5 hunches in total out of all those hands last night.

I would say it was rigged if it happened to me. One royaless cycle of 271k is bad enough, but how many 6 digit royalless streaks in a row like this have you pulled now?...what you have described in the past couple of years is virtually impossible in a "fair" game.