TDB question(s);

[zwaszz]

Looking for a few qualified opinions.  When playing TDB in the Casinos here in Vegas, I break lots of rules.  Example:  I always break two pair if one pair are 2's, 3's, or 4's.  I always keep the ace if a pair is included from 5-10, and throw away that low pair.  I can't steer from this.  At places I know, I feel this is "right" for me.  But, the big one is this, I'd just like a few takes.  IF the deal is 3 Aces or 2's, 3's, or 4's.....does one ALWAYS hold a kicker if also presented?  I've gone back and forth, even taking turns!!  Some say, "you may still get it".  Yes, this is true, but, same token, the unknown bugs me.  No need to present the probability calculation, this i am aware.  Are others out there "winging it", like me?  Appreciate the comments, but please don't "beat me up, lol.  I violate other rules, but, I can't help myself.  Seems, if I don't, I won't win.  Hard enough, all the same.  Thanks.  Fred

[Rosko]

if the deal is 3 aces,2's,3's or 4's-and a kicker is present,
always hold the kicker!!!

[paco13]

I would like to hear more opinions on this also. I always struggle with what to do when faced with this deal.

[notes1]

zwaszz, i promise i will not 'beat you up', and if anyone does, tell them to blow off. you are just asking for an opinion, that what this forum is supposed to be for. it is your money.when i play DDB, i pretty much play as the math says. but, playing TDB, i also will make some adjustments. i know they are against the math. just like you, when dealt 3-a, 2, 3 or 4's, i do not hold a kicker. there are plenty of times i hit the 'premium card' with the 2nd draw card. does it out weigh the fewer but higher payout if i would have saved the kicker, i never counted. but, i would rather have 50% of something than 100% of nothing.do not know the math, but i have hit many more quad A's w/kicker than royals. for me, this holds true on TDB.   good luck!

[Vman96]

The math says hold the kicker when you have trip aces, 2s, 3s, 4s. Quads with the kicker are worth FIVE times more than those without one in this game. So the huge difference in payout well makes up for the fact you will only get the quads half as often when holding the kicker.

The math also says to NOT do the other moves you described (but I think you knew that already...)

[Minn. Fatz]

I'd be the last guy to say you can't play VP however you want to. But you really should have a better idea of what your departures from the best plays mean and what they cost.

If you're dealt trip Aces with a kicker and keep it, there are 47 cards you can draw, while if you toss the kicker there are 1,081 possible two-card combinations you can draw.

Keeping the kicker, you get the fourth Ace 1/47 times, or 2.1 percent of the time; it pays 800 per coin in. Tossing the kicker, you get the fourth Ace and another kicker 11/1081 times, 1.0 percent of the time, and the fourth Ace with no kicker 35/1081 times, 3,2 percent of the time, paying 160 per coin in. You get quad Aces, more than three-quarters of the time without a kicker, twice as often as if you keep the kicker.

Keeping the kicker, you get a FH paying 9 3/47 times, or 6.4 percent of the time. Tossing the kicker, you get a FH 66/1081, or 6.1 percent of the time.

The rest of the time (43/47 or 91,5 percent keeping and 969/1081 or 89.7 percent of the time tossing the kicker) you get just the trips, paying 2 per coin in.

Looking at contributions to expected value, from the AWAK hands you get 17.02 credits keeping and 8.14 tossing the kicker; from the quads nothing keeping and 5.18 tossing the kicker. Tossing the kicker thus costs you 3.70 credits just from the times you get quads. It costs another 0.02 credits from getting fewer FH and 0.04 credits from getting fewer trips.

So you pay 3.76 credits for the satisfaction of getting quads twice as often by tossing the kicker from your trip Aces. Over 1,081 dealt trip Aces with a kicker, that's 86.48 credits total, $21,62 if you play for quarters or about the price of a nice steak dinner.

If you get two kickers with your trip Aces and toss both of them, you pay more, 4.35 credits per hand or 100.15 credits over 1,081 trials, a little more than $25.

Altogether, consistently throwing the kicker will cost you a little over .29 percent in overall expected return. VP being a zero-sum game, the casinos of the world benefit by that much from your deviations from best play.

[zwaszz]

THANKS for all the commentaries.  I will re review them and I appreciate the insights. 

[Vman96]

A similar question came up on another forum recently...

And I wrote all this as a result...shows that TDB ain't so easy.

http://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums ... ost1057575

I'm "tringlomane".

[quote="tringlomane"]Unfortunately strategy changes significantly based upon flush payout. Also, never short-coin this game EVER, as Aces w/kicker will usually NOT pay 800 for 1.

If the flush pays 6 for 1 - 9/6 TDB (98.15%):

Major changes from 9/6 DDB (not exhaustive):

Full strategy:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-pok ... -50-d-800/

When dealt trip Aces, 2s, 3s, 4s with a kicker, ALWAYS hold the kicker. If you aren't willing to do this, do NOT play this game.

When dealt Aces or 2s, 3s, 4s full, break the full house with or without the kicker.

All 3 to a Royal that does NOT have both an Ace and Ten in them are better than KK-JJ or 4 to a flush. For AKT, AQT, AJT royal draws, take KK-JJ or 4 to a flush.

An outside straight (2345-KQJT) is now better than a pair of 5s through 10s since trips only pay 2 for 1.

Inside straights with 3 high cards (AKQT, AKJT, etc.) are better than 2 to a Royal.

An Ace is better than QJ offsuit, or KQJ offsuit.

QJT8 is better than QJT offsuit, which are both better than QJ offsuit only.

KQ, KJ offsuit is better than JT suited. (same in 9/5, 8/5 DDB as well)

Three to a flush with one face card are better than one face card only.

Three to a flush with no high cards is better than garbage.

____________________________________________________________________

If the flush pays 5 for 1 - 9/5 TDB (97.02%) or lower... and if it's lower, look harder), follow DDB strategy, plus the adjustments above, EXCEPT:

Full strategy:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-pok ... -50-d-800/

All 3 to a Royal is better than 4 to a flush.

Only KQJ, QJT suited are better than KK-JJ.

KQJ offsuit is better than an Ace.

An Ace is better than a 3 to a SF with zero high cards and 1 gap (e.g 457, 679 suited). (same in 9/5, 8/5 DDB as well)

3 to any regular flush is NEVER correct.

____________________________________________________________________

And finally full-pay 9/7 TDB (99.58%) adjustments. Here the 3 to a flush and 4 to a flush holds will be most aggressive.

Full strategy:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-pok ... -50-d-800/

Follow 9/6 DDB strategy PLUS 9/6 TDB adjustments, EXCEPT:

All 4 to a flush is better than 3 to a Royal and KK-JJ.

3 to a SF with no gaps or 3 to a SF where the # of high cards = # of gaps is better than 55-TT unless pair blocks SF draw.

3 to a flush with 2 Royal cards is better than 2 to a Royal.

2 to a Royal better than 4 to inside straight with 3 high cards (like 9/6 DDB).

3 to a flush with 1 high card is better than JT suited, which is better than QJT and QJ offsuit.

3 to a straight flush no high cards and 2 gaps is better than KQ, KJ and a single face card.

3 to a flush with no high cards is better than an inside straight with no high cards.


I hope that's most of it...Probably better to click the strategy links.[/quote]

[Vegas Meme]

that's good information

[alpax]

I second that, really good information to approach TDB (if I ever have the guts to take on high variance) from a DDB player (I got it down 99%+ pat) perspective.

Thanks and Much appreciated!