Riddle Me This

[djc32]

Great questions!, here's another..
Why does VP often times get excluded or reduced for multi point promos , and in some cases excluded from using free play ,if the pay tables don't matter ,and if there now set up like a slot ?

[alpax]

I agree, all good responses coming from this thread.


[QUOTE=Vman96]Or even a bigger question, why aren't all paytables 9/6 for JoB and DDB if paytables and strategy didn't matter?   No one has ever given me a logical answer to that one. I could not have said it better. I have been asking why they would need to "rig" a machines. But people keep saying they are not rigged.....but something is different. When I ask what the difference is between rigged and something different....they get upset with me!I believe the opening question was: if machines are not fair, why charge so much to play? If they are a slot, just charge the same as slots. Ya if machines were not fair they could use any pay tables like Vman said[/QUOTE]

I do not think anyone can come up with any logical or reasonable proof that Vman is challenging the doubters with.

At least I do not have the disposable income to try to play 1 million rounds of 9-6 Jacks or Better and 1 million rounds of 8-5 Jacks or Better with respective playing strategies to see if I come out with strikingly similar results at the end.

I will trust the long term math projections and the integrity of the machines; as well as look for the best paytables.




Slots machines cost lots of money to buy, operate and maintain.  A casino must make a minimum profit on each machine to keep it on the floor.  I recently had a chance to be present when the manager was opening the machines in my row and saw the accumulative totals displayed on the screen. Believe me, the casino knows exactly what the payout is for each machine and for which game. I don't doubt for a minute that they would pull a machine that showed an abnormally high payback, but I doubt that happens very often.   Video poker payback percentages are potentially higher than regular slots.  Also, with all the information and training software available, I'm sure casino managers believe they are vulnerable to an advantage player even if it doesn't actually happen.  For all these reasons, video poker comps are less than slots.  Interestingly enough, the casino profit numbers for Keno were much higher than video poker on the screen reports that I had an opportunity to see.


Thanks for sharing this with us. The Game King machines are getting more and more sophisticated with the reporting to go by a per game basis. I hope Keno and DDB gets the bulk of the revenue to keep the machines on the floor.

You are correct about the required profits needed from a machine to stay on the floor, it is not about the popularity, it is about the actual revenue/performance. I've seen some slot games last no more than a month on a casino floor.

[QUOTE=FloridaPhil]
   The Keno paybacks were in the 60-70% range. 
Keno players take note![/QUOTE]

Keno payouts are usually back loaded, meaning a chunk of the payout is reserved for the perfect/rare outcome rounds where players get 5/5, 6/6, 7/7, 7/8, 8/8, 8/9, 9/9, 9/10, or even 10/10.

Most people pick 10 numbers in a straight line or in a box shape, 10 out of 10 happens 1 in 8.9 million rounds, thus most players will lose out on 9/10 and 10/10 returns to make it that low. The more skilled keno players will pick 4 or 7 numbers. I think the lowest payout odds I've seen is at 91% for video keno.

Great questions!, here's another..
Why does VP often times get excluded or reduced for multi point promos , and in some cases excluded from using free play ,if the pay tables don't matter ,and if there now set up like a slot ?



Correct, if they were the same the multipliers should be the same for both. To add to Casino Knight's original post, Vegas local casino joints are places I've seen that earn 1 point per dollar coin in on both VP and slots. But on the promotions, slots get extra multipliers.

[Casino Knight]

At the Gila River Casinos it takes $20. in for 1 point on VP. $10. for Slots. Go figure.

[notes1]

this is the logic from a doubter. you do not have to agree with it, you can argue against it and you are welcome to find fault with it. i can think of no occupation, no industry, no government entity, that has not had some form of corruption, due to money. whether it be the clergy, charities, elected officals, the media, those who are supposed to regulate others/companies, where money has not had an influence.  there are documented cases where rules were violated, overlooked, not enforced, re-written/lobbied for exceptions, some folks bought off, special favors given, many as a result of money or power.  i can only speak for myself. it is not that i do not trust the gaming industry only, i hardly trust anything anymore. there is nothing i put beyond the realm of possibility. in the face of overwhelming evidence that money and power corrupt, i find it remarkable that one would have absolute trust in most anything.  i am confident that at least some of the believers might not trust wall street or trust some politican, both of which have much more regualtion/oversight than the gaming business, yet they have absolute faith that casinos are beyond reproach. as to the arguement, why play? one might not trust wall street or politics, but there is litlle in the way of options. do we not believe  that some get illegal inside information and benefit. what are you supposed to do , not invest. don't we all believe there are corrupt elected folks, what do we do, never vote.      

[djc32]

IMO the difference is, if someone doesn't trust Wall St, or the banks, there's not much they can do if they have a 401k, savings , or a mortgage, they are necessary evils.
But if someone doesn't trust the casino, manufactures or gaming control, there is something they can do, they don't have to play. Video poker is a recreation, not a necessity.

[notes1]

IMO the difference is, if someone doesn't trust Wall St, or the banks, there's not much they can do if they have a 401k, savings , or a mortgage, they are necessary evils.
But if someone doesn't trust the casino, manufactures or gaming control, there is something they can do, they don't have to play. Video poker is a recreation, not a necessity.
  i guess i could throw dice in some back alley.

[ko king]

IMO the difference is, if someone doesn't trust Wall St, or the banks, there's not much they can do if they have a 401k, savings , or a mortgage, they are necessary evils.
But if someone doesn't trust the casino, manufactures or gaming control, there is something they can do, they don't have to play. Video poker is a recreation, not a necessity.

 
 
Corruption due to the influence of power and/or money exist in anything and everything, I can't thing of anything that has ever been immune to that fact , well except for the gaming industry. Let me leave you with just a portion of something I already knew existed and seen happen firsthand. Here's some food for thought that comes from a old study I read concerning the gaming regulators and the gaming industry. As you know the casino industry has changed over the years and most casinos are owned by large corporations. As you well know large corporations usually aren't shy about using their money, power and influence to get what they want, sometimes they even use all that money, power and influence to benefit themselves instead of the public. The office or officers that regulate the gaming industry aren't near as big as you may think them to be. Would it surprise you to know that many of those involved in regulating the gaming industry either worked in the gaming industry prior to or after they left their appointed positions on the committee. You might be also be shocked to find that many individual regulators financially benefit after they leave their appointed positions and enter into the gaming industry either directly or indirectly. Now I'm sure you could say that this is probably very common in almost all industries and I would agree, which leads me back to the very beginning of my post, corruption due to the influence of power and/or money exist in anything and everything. I have a hard time believing and understanding how any and all of the gaming industry is immune to the possiblity that corruption of some form might exist. Is it possible that the entire gaming industry is clean as a whistle, maybe, I'm just not as trusting as you when it comes to this subject.

[notes1]

my post was not intended to indict the entire gaming or investment community. i happen to work in the investment business, for nearly 30 years. while i believe it serves the overwhelming majority of investors fairly, it would be foolish not to acknowledge the presence of rogue/unethical folks. with hundreds of casinos, hundreds of thousands of machines and an untold number of employees, i cannot remember reading of any casino violations, other than underage drinking or paperwork snafus, minor stuff. we are to believe every machine has been inspected on a regular basis and none have been found to not be in perfect working/legal order. this entire subject has gained traction, since the onset of the recession. long before the paytables were reduced, some began feeling the machines had changed. as one of those, i am not attempting to convince anyone else, i am just presenting my opinion and everyone is free to disregard my beliefs. what has changed, the cost of gambling increased beyond the expected results.  and finally, i will remind everyone again. bernie maddof was never caught by regulators, even after being investigated for nearly 20 years. and, the SEC are much tougher and have more power than some casino regulator.

[djc32]

I think we are all well aware that corporations are not immune to corruption , the many examples of this get repeated over and over again on this forum, but yet the posters who keep bringing them up, and saying something has changed with VP, keep going back to the casino on a regular basis.

I hope this doesn't become yet another thread that gets away from the original topic, because posters in this thread have asked some great questions that have yet to be answered.

[notes1]

 my opinion comes from my personal experience in the casino. while playing the same games, the same denomination, the same strategy and the same duration, i watched the cost of playing VP increase, sometime after the onset of the recession. my opinion was not based on 1 or 2 years, but 4 years of play, largely in AC, where the paytables had not been appreciably been downgraded, yet the cost rose beyond expected results. in simple terms, the cost to play VP was much higher than the small change in paytables. only this year, with paytables being even worse, i have experienced a sharp reversal of fortune. and, even with greatly reduced play, i would be net positive, if it were not for AC play. pure luck!   after reading many of your posts, you will never agree, because you are a true believer in  the absolute integrity of the casino, the math, and the oversight of regulators along with the notion that all those regulations are only there to protect the players.  i have posted my net results all year, yet i am curious why i almost never read a post from the true believers, stating their net results. i would be very interested in hearing how good those who are much better players than me and play only the best paytables are doing. it might be an inspiration for me to attain that level of achievement.