Pay Tables: So far......So bad

[ko king]

excellent posts, Ko king  and Spxchrome!!!!    I applaud your conclusions and especially SPX's detailed record keeping (thanks for showing everyone what I myself have been saying I USED to do to an even more retentive extent than you!  it is possible to do this if one so chooses and knows what to do with the data one accumulates!)


As I have been saying over and over and over, and as a certain "clique" simply opposes without any real rational backing......the games and the way they are administered by most casinos (maybe ALL) in AC, have been changed and "modified" so that is truly is IMPOSSIBLE to simply show a straight profit EVEN if the paytable is 100% (or as close as is possible these days)......

And this should be obvious, and no longer a mystery or surprise, to anyone....the casino BUSINESS (its not an "industry", sorry) is no longer the sure fire profit conjuring guaranteed moneymaker it used to seem to be......sure, there are still SOME casinos that do well, but not nearly as well as they once did, and not nearly as many.    Hence, they have to literally "HANG ON" to every dollar they can, and that means doing the things we see and perceive to our erstwhile "straight forward" video poker games.

I respect what Bob dancer does and represents, but I "know" that, other than the "insider tricks and secrets" he claims he knows, there is no way he (or anyone else) can support themselves by simply playing as advantageously as possible (like many USED to do.)


 
I would challenge anyone, alpax, Dancer or Jesus Christ to tackle these games, I don't care how well or perfect they play. In all truth I think the only reason I still bother playing is to prove a point that means nothing to anybody but myself, I'm more or less playing pissed off. They bring up "variance" which I understand but how many years do you you have to end up coming up on the low end of the scale before it means a darn thing, is it 2 years, 3 years or forever, how may players have to end end up on the low end before it means anything. Forget 15-16 years of past history playing goes, you were just lucky, I don't buy that crap.

[KingofAmerica]

If I were so miserable and bitter playing VP like some of the people here, I would just quit playing and find another hobby. Seriously, this board is depressing.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=KingofAmerica]If I were so miserable and bitter playing VP like some of the people here, I would just quit playing and find another hobby.[/quote]Anyone one has played video poker for any extended period of time knows it's a game of great highs and frightful lows.  It's human to get into a "rigged machine" mindset when one of the inevitable long nasty streaks descends and the game you enjoy so much turns on you.  Could it be back in the day when you were getting more frequent hand pays you were on a winning streak?  I personally know exactly what this feels like.  I've had consecutive losing years when I couldn't buy a jackpot.  At this time I happen to be on an upswing, but I expect that to change at any moment and I don't know how long it could last.  We feel your pain, but players who honestly  believe the games are rigged should stop playing video poker and move on to table games or something they feel better about.  Talking with others about how the machines don't pay like they used to is one way of dealing with it and I understand there is comfort in that, but why would you subject yourself to this abuse if you seriously believed it?   I'm not weighing in on one side of the other.  I chose to deal with this issue by limiting my loses, but other may forge ahead.   As I see it you have three choices; quit the game, play cheaper or continue as normal and wait to see what happens.  Each player has to make this decision on his own.

[ko king]

If I were so miserable and bitter playing VP like some of the people here, I would just quit playing and find another hobby. Seriously, this board is depressing.

 
I play a lot of golf, sometimes I play really bad, sometimes I play with a foursome I don't care for and somethimes the weather doesn't turn out so good, in other words sometimes I'm miserable when I play golf, I'm going to play today. Look the video poker isn't bad every single time I play, I'm just trying to make a point that others and myself believe something has changed in certain areas. Some believe that it isn't even possible that any change could occur other than pay tables. This is a video poker forum and I believe it's a topic worth discussing. I also enjoy poiltics and post on another site, I highly advise that you stay away from that site.

[ko king]

[quote=KingofAmerica]If I were so miserable and bitter playing VP like some of the people here, I would just quit playing and find another hobby.Anyone one has played video poker for any extended period of time knows it's a game of great highs and frightful lows.  It's human to get into a "rigged machine" mindset when one of the inevitable long nasty streaks descends and the game you enjoy so much turns on you.  Could it be back in the day when you were getting more frequent hand pays you were on a winning streak?  I personally know exactly what this feels like.  I've had consecutive losing years when I couldn't buy a jackpot.  At this time I happen to be on an upswing, but I expect that to change at any moment and I don't know how long it could last. 

We feel your pain, but players who honestly  believe the games are rigged should stop playing video poker and move on to table games or something they feel better about.  Talking with others about how the machines don't pay like they used to is one way of dealing with it and I understand there is comfort in that, but why would you subject yourself to this abuse if you seriously believed it?   I'm not weighing in on one side of the other.  I chose to deal with this issue by limiting my loses, but other may forge ahead.   As I see it you have three choices; quit the game, play cheaper or continue as normal and wait to see what happens.  Each player has to make this decision on his own.
[/QUOTE]

 
Phil, at the years end I'm going to post my results, thus far I've chosen the last of your three options "continue as normal and wait and see what happens", as it stands now I think it will be very interesting to discuss how it could possibly be so bad.

[case]

If you hit above the number of royal flushes expected your results will look good. If you are under royaled your results will suffer. Some people go many 100s of thousand hands without a royal while others have say 3 royals in 5,000 hands. Never discount luck....it goes hand in hand with skill.

[BobDancer]

[QUOTE=ko king I would challenge anyone, alpax, Dancer or Jesus Christ to tackle these games, I don't care how well or perfect they play. [/QUOTE]I can't speak for Jesus Christ, and alpax can speak for himself, but I do play video poker regularly. And while I do have income from other sources, the money I earn from video poker is enough to live on --- although not as great as in years past.I don't know what pay schedules you're playing. I don't know what promotions you play. I don't know how you work the comp system. I don't know your skill level. I don't know how you work the hosts in order to gain information and extra goodies. All of these things matter. Some of these are not trivial skills to master. The fact that someone has been playing what he thinks are good games and is still behind can often be explained by looking at exactly what pay schedules he is playing, looking at his skill level, promotions, comps, etc.Some people are good at complaining --- while others shrug off small bumps in the road. those who complain are more likely to post "everything is going to hell" messages --- like those found in this thread. But just because these people have such a negative outlook is no reason for others to believe what they say is true.

[Waiting4RF]

Does anyone know why IGT has different software versions for different jurisdictions? For games like All Star Poker II, Spin Poker, One Hundred Play, etc Nevada has their own software version. Then most of the states have a different software version than Nevada but all of those states have the same version (#1002). Has this been discussed before?

www.igt.com click
GAMES
Video Poker (on left side)
All Games
Program List

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]I don't know what pay schedules you're playing. I don't know what
promotions you play. I don't know how you work the comp system. I don't
know your skill level. I don't know how you work the hosts in order to
gain information and extra goodies.[/quote]Every player on this forum should read and study these comments in detail.  I have suspected for a long time that video poker "winning" involves more than playing the right game perfectly.  To win long term you also need to be able to "work the system" from top to bottom.  There is a real lesson here for recreational players and those who want to follow in Bob's footsteps.  Do you have the same skill, games, opportunities, comps, promotions, and inside information as a Bob Dancer?  I also suspect it took him years to accumulate his knowledge of the Vegas casino landscape.   If my conclusion is true and I'm pretty confident it is, there is always going to be a financial fee to play the game itself.  If you don't have the advantages of a Bob Dancer, you must decide for yourself how much you are willing to pay to have the thrill of a winning day.  For some, it could be $100K or more a year.  For others if could be much cheaper.  It's all the same game... 

[ko king]

[QUOTE=ko king

I would challenge anyone, alpax, Dancer or Jesus Christ to tackle these games, I don't care how well or perfect they play.


I can't speak for Jesus Christ, and alpax can speak for himself, but I do play video poker regularly. And while I do have income from other sources, the money I earn from video poker is enough to live on --- although not as great as in years past.

I don't know what pay schedules you're playing. I don't know what promotions you play. I don't know how you work the comp system. I don't know your skill level. I don't know how you work the hosts in order to gain information and extra goodies. All of these things matter. Some of these are not trivial skills to master. The fact that someone has been playing what he thinks are good games and is still behind can often be explained by looking at exactly what pay schedules he is playing, looking at his skill level, promotions, comps, etc.

Some people are good at complaining --- while others shrug off small bumps in the road. those who complain are more likely to post "everything is going to hell" messages --- like those found in this thread. But just because these people have such a negative outlook is no reason for others to believe what they say is true.


[/QUOTE]

 
Well Bob I guess I don't have the talent to work the system, in fact I ask for very little, I pretty much just look for the best pay tables available in this area. I've never been dumb enough to think I could beat negative expectation games and I'd be perfectly happy just to come close to the advertised payback percentage. I'm also not fond of the pot shot shot you threw at me, I've shrugged off plenty of "small bumps in the road" during my 20 years of play, I'm pretty certain I've pointed that out in other post. Been plenty of ups and downs without a doubt but it was never much of a concern for me, I'm truly concerned now because this is no ordinary small bump in the road for me. Maybe I'm reading a little to much into your post but it kind of seems like you're calling me a liar.