I will say you are right about positive games being illegal. 3 weeks ago a co-player finally had enough and called the gaming commission to complain. He explained to them that mathematically the return he was getting for the past 6 months on 10/6 DDB and 9/7 TDB was next to impossible. All they had to say was that those games were not allowed in the casino. Within 24 hours the chips were changed on a row of 7 machines that offered
10/6 DDB (100.7%)
9/7 TDB (99.58%)
8/5 Super Aces (99.94%)
600/20/10/8 Triple Deuces Wild (99.92%)
down to
9/6 DDB
9/6 TDB
7/5 Super Aces
Triple Deuces Wild was eliminated
And I know their is a variance in these games and I know that there are streaks but a 5 month cold streak were 5 of 6 handpays are dealt hands there is something else going on. I average 1 hand pay per trip cause I play around 6-8K hands per session. If I don't get a handpay on 1 trip I usually get 2 the next.
I have had 6 in the past 21 trips and as I have said 5 of those were dealt.
Gezz I may buy it if it was just me but there are 4 of us that all play about the same amount and we are ALL having the same results, it is just impossible to draw a premium hand.
Example: I quit counting my deal trip aces at over 220 without drawing the forth. My highest before that was 93.
I remember seeing 10/6 DDB but it was back in the old days, it's been probably close to 20 years since I seen it in a casino. When it disapeared I ask the reason and I was told that positive expectation games were deemed illegal in this area, they had no idea why and I didn't follow up on the issue. I played $2 denomination 9/6 DDB and $2 Denom 9/6 TDB for probably 15 years and never had an issue with the games, enjoyed playing. I had to quit playing $2 denomination because the statistics and odds weren't working for me anymore, I kept waiting for the numbers to come back around to something decent but they never did. I've been playing $1 denomination nowdays at mostly small market casinos, they offer 9/6 TDB, I'm now at over 40K hands of $1 denom 9/6 TDB without a handpay at one casino. Everytime I go to that one casino I look around to see if anyone else is plating $1 denomination but almost all of them are slow playing nickels for free drinks. I wouldn't be surprised to find that I'm the only sucker dumb enough to play $1 denom.
Pay Tables: So far......So bad
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ko king
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 670
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:13 pm
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ko king
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 670
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:13 pm
Wizard of Odds Video Poker Strategy Analyzer for 9-6 TDB
These two premium quads alone have higher variances than an entire video poker game.
Four Aces with any 2, 3, 4 has a variance factor of 44.94 with a frequency of 1 in 14,205 with perfect play.
Four 2s, 3s, 4s with any Ace,2,3,4 has a variance factor of 27.47 with a frequency of 1 in 5795 with perfect play.
A small increase in variance factor number represents an exponential increase in the possible outcomes of the game.
Alpax, I am truly impressed of your knowledge of the games and variance factors so I'm going to ask a question that I have complete faith in your ability to answer.
The subect is concering slot machines, by law the slot machines are required to be random also, the slots also use an RNG program. I was told that slots in our area cannot have a return less than 84%, I doubt any of the casinos in this area shoot for that 84% return number but they could by law. Now let's say a casino has a bank of 10 slot machines that are returning around 92% and they decide they want to decrease the return down to 89%. In order to get the number down to 89% return what does the casino have to do, replace the RNG, just put in a new chip or both? For instance I can go into any casino and I might find a bank of slots called "Fire Sevens", when I look at the front of the machines that shows what all the different combinations pay I still have no idea what return that bank of slots may be set to return. In the same casino I can find a bank of "Fire Seven" slots that have a big sign above them advertising that this bank of "Fire Seven" slots is set to return 99.5%, when I look at the front of these slots the pay for all the different combinations of symbols are no different than the bank of "Fire Seven" slots that may only be set to return 92%. Now nothing looks any different at all in these banks of "Fire Seven" slots, pay tables are identicle, yet they are far different when it comes to what each bank will return to players. In order to adjust or change the return what is required, just change the RNG or just change a chip, either way are they not just simply changing the level of variance because both banks show the same exact pay tables for symbol combinations.
These two premium quads alone have higher variances than an entire video poker game.
Four Aces with any 2, 3, 4 has a variance factor of 44.94 with a frequency of 1 in 14,205 with perfect play.
Four 2s, 3s, 4s with any Ace,2,3,4 has a variance factor of 27.47 with a frequency of 1 in 5795 with perfect play.
A small increase in variance factor number represents an exponential increase in the possible outcomes of the game.
Alpax, I am truly impressed of your knowledge of the games and variance factors so I'm going to ask a question that I have complete faith in your ability to answer.
The subect is concering slot machines, by law the slot machines are required to be random also, the slots also use an RNG program. I was told that slots in our area cannot have a return less than 84%, I doubt any of the casinos in this area shoot for that 84% return number but they could by law. Now let's say a casino has a bank of 10 slot machines that are returning around 92% and they decide they want to decrease the return down to 89%. In order to get the number down to 89% return what does the casino have to do, replace the RNG, just put in a new chip or both? For instance I can go into any casino and I might find a bank of slots called "Fire Sevens", when I look at the front of the machines that shows what all the different combinations pay I still have no idea what return that bank of slots may be set to return. In the same casino I can find a bank of "Fire Seven" slots that have a big sign above them advertising that this bank of "Fire Seven" slots is set to return 99.5%, when I look at the front of these slots the pay for all the different combinations of symbols are no different than the bank of "Fire Seven" slots that may only be set to return 92%. Now nothing looks any different at all in these banks of "Fire Seven" slots, pay tables are identicle, yet they are far different when it comes to what each bank will return to players. In order to adjust or change the return what is required, just change the RNG or just change a chip, either way are they not just simply changing the level of variance because both banks show the same exact pay tables for symbol combinations.
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alpax
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1913
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:42 pm
Alpax, I am truly impressed of your knowledge of the games and variance factors so I'm going to ask a question that I have complete faith in your ability to answer.
Â
The subect is concering slot machines, by law the slot machines are required to be random also, the slots also use an RNG program. I was told that slots in our area cannot have a return less than 84%, I doubt any of the casinos in this area shoot for that 84% return number but they could by law. Now let's say a casino has a bank of 10 slot machines that are returning around 92% and they decide they want to decrease the return down to 89%. In order to get the number down to 89% return what does the casino have to do, replace the RNG, just put in a new chip or both? For instance I can go into any casino and I might find a bank of slots called "Fire Sevens", when I look at the front of the machines that shows what all the different combinations pay I still have no idea what return that bank of slots may be set to return. In the same casino I can find a bank of "Fire Seven" slots that have a big sign above them advertising that this bank of "Fire Seven" slots is set to return 99.5%, when I look at the front of these slots the pay for all the different combinations of symbols are no different than the bank of "Fire Seven" slots that may only be set to return 92%. Now nothing looks any different at all in these banks of "Fire Seven" slots, pay tables are identicle, yet they are far different when it comes to what each bank will return to players. In order to adjust or change the return what is required, just change the RNG or just change a chip, either way are they not just simply changing the level of variance because both banks show the same exact pay tables for symbol combinations.
I've played slots long enough to respond to this. All slots are programmed with thousands or even millions of different winning and losing outcomes. The RNG generates multiple number combinations mapping out to one of the possible outcomes that was programmed. The spinning motion acts for show. To adjust payout percentages these days, the RNG chips no longer need to be replaced with advanced control panel settings and server side gaming. Before the RNG was dedicated to specific games.
In order to effectively lower the payout percentages. The chances for the highest paying combinations are left alone, it is rare for it to trigger and does not account for much of the game's overall return. By lowering the payout, more of those number combinations sets will start to map out to losing symbol combinations. Reel slots do tease the player by showing the biggest two symbols on the line but with the third one just barely missing. It makes them feel that were so close to the jackpot, in reality they might not have been.
I believe olds has seen a slot attendant adjust the payout percentage of a slot in the middle of the night on the control panel screens at the Mohegan Sun. I will look for the post.
That is also the reason the short pay editions of video poker games have shorted full house and/or flush payouts, they still happen more often enough but the return is less than usual.
Â
The subect is concering slot machines, by law the slot machines are required to be random also, the slots also use an RNG program. I was told that slots in our area cannot have a return less than 84%, I doubt any of the casinos in this area shoot for that 84% return number but they could by law. Now let's say a casino has a bank of 10 slot machines that are returning around 92% and they decide they want to decrease the return down to 89%. In order to get the number down to 89% return what does the casino have to do, replace the RNG, just put in a new chip or both? For instance I can go into any casino and I might find a bank of slots called "Fire Sevens", when I look at the front of the machines that shows what all the different combinations pay I still have no idea what return that bank of slots may be set to return. In the same casino I can find a bank of "Fire Seven" slots that have a big sign above them advertising that this bank of "Fire Seven" slots is set to return 99.5%, when I look at the front of these slots the pay for all the different combinations of symbols are no different than the bank of "Fire Seven" slots that may only be set to return 92%. Now nothing looks any different at all in these banks of "Fire Seven" slots, pay tables are identicle, yet they are far different when it comes to what each bank will return to players. In order to adjust or change the return what is required, just change the RNG or just change a chip, either way are they not just simply changing the level of variance because both banks show the same exact pay tables for symbol combinations.
I've played slots long enough to respond to this. All slots are programmed with thousands or even millions of different winning and losing outcomes. The RNG generates multiple number combinations mapping out to one of the possible outcomes that was programmed. The spinning motion acts for show. To adjust payout percentages these days, the RNG chips no longer need to be replaced with advanced control panel settings and server side gaming. Before the RNG was dedicated to specific games.
In order to effectively lower the payout percentages. The chances for the highest paying combinations are left alone, it is rare for it to trigger and does not account for much of the game's overall return. By lowering the payout, more of those number combinations sets will start to map out to losing symbol combinations. Reel slots do tease the player by showing the biggest two symbols on the line but with the third one just barely missing. It makes them feel that were so close to the jackpot, in reality they might not have been.
I believe olds has seen a slot attendant adjust the payout percentage of a slot in the middle of the night on the control panel screens at the Mohegan Sun. I will look for the post.
That is also the reason the short pay editions of video poker games have shorted full house and/or flush payouts, they still happen more often enough but the return is less than usual.
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ko king
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 670
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:13 pm
[QUOTE=ko king] Alpax, I am truly impressed of your knowledge of the games and variance factors so I'm going to ask a question that I have complete faith in your ability to answer.
The subect is concering slot machines, by law the slot machines are required to be random also, the slots also use an RNG program. I was told that slots in our area cannot have a return less than 84%, I doubt any of the casinos in this area shoot for that 84% return number but they could by law. Now let's say a casino has a bank of 10 slot machines that are returning around 92% and they decide they want to decrease the return down to 89%. In order to get the number down to 89% return what does the casino have to do, replace the RNG, just put in a new chip or both? For instance I can go into any casino and I might find a bank of slots called "Fire Sevens", when I look at the front of the machines that shows what all the different combinations pay I still have no idea what return that bank of slots may be set to return. In the same casino I can find a bank of "Fire Seven" slots that have a big sign above them advertising that this bank of "Fire Seven" slots is set to return 99.5%, when I look at the front of these slots the pay for all the different combinations of symbols are no different than the bank of "Fire Seven" slots that may only be set to return 92%. Now nothing looks any different at all in these banks of "Fire Seven" slots, pay tables are identicle, yet they are far different when it comes to what each bank will return to players. In order to adjust or change the return what is required, just change the RNG or just change a chip, either way are they not just simply changing the level of variance because both banks show the same exact pay tables for symbol combinations.
I've played slots long enough to respond to this. All slots are programmed with thousands or even millions of different winning and losing outcomes. The RNG generates multiple number combinations mapping out to one of the possible outcomes that was programmed. The spinning motion acts for show. To adjust payout percentages these days, the RNG chips no longer need to be replaced with advanced control panel settings and server side gaming. Before the RNG was dedicated to specific games.
In order to effectively lower the payout percentages. The chances for the highest paying combinations are left alone, it is rare for it to trigger and does not account for much of the game's overall return. By lowering the payout, more of those number combinations sets will start to map out to losing symbol combinations. Reel slots do tease the player by showing the biggest two symbols on the line but with the third one just barely missing. It makes them feel that were so close to the jackpot, in reality they might not have been.
I believe olds has seen a slot attendant adjust the payout percentage of a slot in the middle of the night on the control panel screens at the Mohegan Sun. I will look for the post.
That is also the reason the short pay editions of video poker games have shorted full house and/or flush payouts, they still happen more often enough but the return is less than usual.[/QUOTE]
Hope you don't mind me picking your brain for information, I should know more about the games seeing as how I've played in casinos for over twenty years. When the casinos first came to our area I only played slots, did pretty good on them also. Read a couple of books concerning video poker many years ago but I really only paid attention to learning the correct method of play for DDB and TDB, I don't have a clue about the rest of the games.
The subect is concering slot machines, by law the slot machines are required to be random also, the slots also use an RNG program. I was told that slots in our area cannot have a return less than 84%, I doubt any of the casinos in this area shoot for that 84% return number but they could by law. Now let's say a casino has a bank of 10 slot machines that are returning around 92% and they decide they want to decrease the return down to 89%. In order to get the number down to 89% return what does the casino have to do, replace the RNG, just put in a new chip or both? For instance I can go into any casino and I might find a bank of slots called "Fire Sevens", when I look at the front of the machines that shows what all the different combinations pay I still have no idea what return that bank of slots may be set to return. In the same casino I can find a bank of "Fire Seven" slots that have a big sign above them advertising that this bank of "Fire Seven" slots is set to return 99.5%, when I look at the front of these slots the pay for all the different combinations of symbols are no different than the bank of "Fire Seven" slots that may only be set to return 92%. Now nothing looks any different at all in these banks of "Fire Seven" slots, pay tables are identicle, yet they are far different when it comes to what each bank will return to players. In order to adjust or change the return what is required, just change the RNG or just change a chip, either way are they not just simply changing the level of variance because both banks show the same exact pay tables for symbol combinations.
I've played slots long enough to respond to this. All slots are programmed with thousands or even millions of different winning and losing outcomes. The RNG generates multiple number combinations mapping out to one of the possible outcomes that was programmed. The spinning motion acts for show. To adjust payout percentages these days, the RNG chips no longer need to be replaced with advanced control panel settings and server side gaming. Before the RNG was dedicated to specific games.
In order to effectively lower the payout percentages. The chances for the highest paying combinations are left alone, it is rare for it to trigger and does not account for much of the game's overall return. By lowering the payout, more of those number combinations sets will start to map out to losing symbol combinations. Reel slots do tease the player by showing the biggest two symbols on the line but with the third one just barely missing. It makes them feel that were so close to the jackpot, in reality they might not have been.
I believe olds has seen a slot attendant adjust the payout percentage of a slot in the middle of the night on the control panel screens at the Mohegan Sun. I will look for the post.
That is also the reason the short pay editions of video poker games have shorted full house and/or flush payouts, they still happen more often enough but the return is less than usual.[/QUOTE]
Hope you don't mind me picking your brain for information, I should know more about the games seeing as how I've played in casinos for over twenty years. When the casinos first came to our area I only played slots, did pretty good on them also. Read a couple of books concerning video poker many years ago but I really only paid attention to learning the correct method of play for DDB and TDB, I don't have a clue about the rest of the games.
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djc32
- Senior Member
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:58 am
Read a couple of books concerning video poker many years ago but I really only paid attention to learning the correct method of play for DDB and TDB, I don't have a clue about the rest of the games.
Do you use any sort of VP training software?
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FAA
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 8569
- Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:58 am
also the reason the short pay editions of video poker games have shorted
full house and/or flush payouts, they still happen more often enough
but the return is less than usual.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yep. It makes no sense to ding the royal and straight flush payouts at the rate those guys show up!
full house and/or flush payouts, they still happen more often enough
but the return is less than usual.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yep. It makes no sense to ding the royal and straight flush payouts at the rate those guys show up!
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BobDancer
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1112
- Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:07 am
also the reason the short pay editions of video poker games have shorted
full house and/or flush payouts, they still happen more often enough
but the return is less than usual.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yep. It makes no sense to ding the royal and straight flush payouts at the rate those guys show up!
Not really. EVERY pay schedule category is shorted in some version of the game. You can find 2500-coin royals, straight flushes for 200, 3-of-a-kinds for 10, two pair for 5, and "queens or better" rather than "jacks or better."It's simply a matter of cutting up the pie. Game manufacturers try all sorts of combinations, hoping to find one that is tight enough for casinos to feel comfortable putting on the floor and attractive enough for players to want to play. videopoker.com continually brings out new games with some new "twist." Sometimes pay schedules. Sometimes something else.
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FloridaPhil
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 6229
- Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:28 am
[quote=BobDancer]EVERY pay schedule category is shorted in some version of the game.[/quote]You never know where the shorted payouts are going to occur. Deuces is a perfect example. There are so many versions of this game that we are running out of names. The most common place to cut is the common hands down low where an uninformed player wouldn't notice. Unfortunately, that's where they usually have the most effect on your return. With casinos cutting back odds all over the place, it's almost a necessity to have software like VPW to tell you what's going on before you play. Also, slight changes in pay schedule can affect hand strategies. I keep a laptop in my room with me and check out the game if I see something I'm not familiar with. Traveling like we do, it gets a good workout.
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FAA
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 8569
- Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:58 am
You can find 2500-coin royals, straight flushes for 200------------------------------------------------------------------------Very true. It's been so long since I subjected my eyes to those tables that I forgot they existed!
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MPD001
- Senior Member
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:12 pm
I will speak for myself and say I will not prefer to play 9/6 or 9/7 TDB over full pay Jacks or Better (I really hope this will still last for years to come). I am an experienced recreational gambler and have paid for my ignorance from the past for playing games with high house edges. Most people do not pay attention to their losses before it gets too late.
I do not doubt people can lose year after year playing TDB. What is the chance of losing 3 years in a row playing 100k hands of 9/6 TDB (which is the 2nd best known pay schedule for this game)? The answer is about 38% and that is a good chance of it happening.
I've set the starting bankroll to be $50,000 which is slightly more than the average household income in the nation. I ran it for 100k hands which has a chance of loss at 72.7%!
.7270 ^ 3 = 38.424%
The probability of losing more than $20,000 after playing 100k hands of $1 9/6 TDB is slightly above 20%. I follow posts by ko king, but I do not know what casino this is played at or what offers are received for that kind of play. Is it really worth that kind of risk? Even if a player is on the lucky end of the curve in TDB, chances are the casino will not send mailer offers.
Mr. Dancer's criticism of a person's play is usually constructive in my opinion. Whether people take it to heart and make adjustments to improve upon their play is up to their own. It is not only for the people that rely on VP to make a living, it applies to anyone who plays considerable amount of video poker.
The only person (or visitor) I feel less sorry for is the original poster of this post who plays 8/5 TDB at the Venetian, a multi billion dollar strip casino.
When it Sucks.....It Really Sucks
My advice to those that find Jacks or Better really that boring is to play it for a few hands at the high limit room. A full house at $5 denom does pay almost as much as a 5s thru Kings quad at $1 DDB/TDB, but you will not have to wait it out. Thus far no one has called me out on playing JoB exclusively, I have not posted a W2G win and I am not ashamed of that at all. My bankroll and financial well being is more important than someone else's opinion or trying to show off a jackpot here.Well, for what it's worth, here was a recent experience of mine. I was playing my usual TDB multi-line, and struck up a conversation with a fellow who was from my same home town. He was touting the value of playing Bonus Deuces Wild on multi-line, since you get a lot of smaller payouts, and can keep you playing longer. So, I had enough to drink to say, sure, I'll give it a try. I dialed up 10-line, $0.50 Bonus Deuces Wild, and on about my 5th draw, was dealt a NATURAL RF for $20k. So, my point is, if VP is 'tinkered' to minimize good payouts these days, why the heck was THAT hand even in the machine?
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