HELLO BOB DANCER......

[DaBurglar]

Bob, in your vast expanse of Video Poker Knowledge and in particular, that vault of "secret" information you hold to seemingly allow you to continue your quest at grinding out a "living" playing video poker (primarily in vegas), do you have any...and I mean  ANY....specific knowledge on the state of video poker in Atlantic City???You no doubt have heard me the last five plus years maintaining the position that, when comparing how video poker operates in AC  versus places like Vegas or Reno, there is some HUGE difference (in a very negative or BAD way) that persists in the AC side of things versus how video poker works in Vegas and Reno.Specifically, I have noticed beyond any doubt that, over the past five years, as I have now racked up a hand total well over a million (although much less in the last year as I have focused primarily on playing regular poker), the rate of "DUD"/Non-paying hands on most machines I have played in AC is well above the expected 55% average rate the typical machine in Nevada will yield.I am talking "DUD" rates well in the high 60s or low 70s percentage.......happens all the time, and not just to me......The paytables in AC for the most part suck, but you can still find 99% or more games if you try, and the vast majority of my time has been spent on playing games like 8/5 Bonus poker, or progressive machines that, when the jackpot gets high enough, the payoff is in the 99% or more range.....this is really the only issue we need to focus on, the rate of non-paying dud hands that AC video Poker machines spit out.    I have said that this is due to the fact that AC gaming regs and rules classify ALL machines as slots, and this includes video poker.    Even if there is wording in the regulations that seemingly distinguishes "skill" games like video poker from slots (very POOR wording at that), in PRACTICE and in the understanding of the majority of AC casino workers/managers/regulators, they all seem to view video poker as just another form of slots.   And as you must know, Bob, in AC, the lower end of allowable slot returns is about 83-84%.     What this means, I have concluded, is that for many Video Poker machines, even though the PAYTABLES may indicate a return of 99%, or 97, 98, 96.4  or whatever, they actually are set to return in the low 80s just like penny slots!Now obviously the only way to have a VP machine with a paytable (like 8/5 Bonus poker) that indicates a 99+% return to actually return something like 85% over time is to have that Video Poker machine deal out a LARGE number of hands that yield NOTHING.....zip....zero....zilch....DUDS!!!    I have found this repeatedly over the years, machines that just spit out hand after hand after hand of NOTHING.....Of course, there are some machines that this is not the case (apparently):    I have seen or even played a few machines that seem almost normal, maybe even slightly better than normal.....but these are few and far between.In short, BOB....what do you really, ultiamtely KNOW about this???    I do not need to have you explain variance, and randomness and all that....as you must know by now, I get all  that.    What I need is for you to divulge any esoteric, or "secret" info you might have on this very topic (AC Video Poker  versus the rest of the country)......Contrary to what others here might have you think, I do respect what you do and stand for....I do not always agree with you, but I respect it.   Anything you can share on this topic will be appreciated.......Thanks, Da Burglar.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=DaBurglar]In short, BOB....what do you really, ultiamtely KNOW about this???    I
do not need to have you explain variance, and randomness and all
that....as you must know by now, I get all  that.    What I need is for
you to divulge any esoteric, or "secret" info you might have on this
very topic (AC Video Poker  versus the rest of the country)......[/quote]Do you actually think Bob Dancer would say anything to lead people to think video poker machines are rigged? 

[vpnutnj]

I have played 9/6 DDB in AC for a long time. To say things have changed for the worse is an understatement. In or around 2010 my favorite casino changed the pay table to 9/5 for DDB and reduced most other vp games pay schedules. So some would say that the negative expectation 9/6 game reduced to a 9/5 game went from a good game to not to bad game. Not true. Gone were the extended streaks that I enjoyed over the years to seeing DUD after DUD dealt. In my favorite casino I concentrated on 15 machines that I played for years. In one six week period I witnessed one machine hit the royal 5 times in a 6 week period. I hit 3 of them, my wife 1 and another player hit 1 as well. Long streaks of hitting multiple bonus hands or just multiple 4 of a kinds were suddenly gone. This condition has existed for the last 5 years. Yes I have hit quite a few royals since then but the machines just don't play the same as they did prior to 2010. There is no consistent play anymore either with my play or any other player that I encounter. So I am convinced that the pay tables are now only for display and not an actual account of what the payback percentages are. If you review the par sheets for a 9/6 DDB vs. a 9/5 DDB you will see that the frequency of hits are very much the same. The old explanation of "the machine is not getting enough play" just doesn't make sense anymore as I am now at another casino that has a great following but the machines are just as bad. You may say why do these people continue to go back and play week after week? In my experience over the years the majority of people play so badly that they are used to losing therefore they don't realize what is happening around them. They continue to go hoping for the
best but expecting the worst. This is what keeps the casinos in business.
Sorry for the long rant, but I bumped into this site and had to respond to this issue.

[DaBurglar]

[quote=DaBurglar]In short, BOB....what do you really, ultiamtely KNOW about this???    I
do not need to have you explain variance, and randomness and all
that....as you must know by now, I get all  that.    What I need is for
you to divulge any esoteric, or "secret" info you might have on this
very topic (AC Video Poker  versus the rest of the country)......Do you actually think Bob Dancer would say anything to lead people to think video poker machines are rigged? 



[/QUOTE]NO NO NO   see this is what I am getting at.......if someone can actually understand what I am getting at, they will see that I am, in a very SUBTLE manner, suggesting that the AC video Poker machines are NOT....<repeat> ... NOT Rigged, but in fact the entire SYSTEM in AC is INTENTIONALLY built upon and structured to yield the results I am experiencing and that it is not befitting of the definiton of the term "RIGGED" (other than, as most casino games essentially are "rigged" in their own fashion .....)Floridaphil, I forget, Have you yourself played in AC recently?  I apologize if you posted recently on this, I simply do not recall off the top of my head......I've always respected your viewpoints on things, and you seem to me the type who keeps a grounded, realistic view of all things related to Video poker.    I hope Bob gives this some good honest thought and shares exactly what he knows about the AC scene and situation.ALSO BOB, if you could:    What do you think, and/or, what do you KNOW, about the state of FLUX that is currently in play  in New Jersey regarding the entire casino Industry, as the State Legislature and the Powers-that-be  seem to have essentially written off Atlantic City and are driving to get casinos approved for the Northern part of the state, especially in NEWARK?     The New Jersey Gaming Control Division, and Gaming enforcement, is really all over the place and in a awful state of deployment, with the massive cuts to staffing and resources;   No longer is each casino in AC home to a on site 24/7 contingent of gaming enforcement agents, the local Atlantic City office (located on Tennessee Avenue) is basically abandoned, and as the Borgata Poker CHIP scandal from a year and a half ago greatly illustrated, the state police are very poor substitutes for REAL bonafide full time gaming enforcement agents.Do you, Bob Dancer, feel the state of regulatory (and enforcement) "FLUX" in AC is conducive to maintaining the public faith and trust that anything (and everything) related to AC casinos is still 100% "KOSHER", fair, on the level and "up and up"?    In other words, would you, THEEE Bob Dancer, world reknowned expert and Video Poker Authority (& "GURU")  feel confident and comfortable playing video poker in AC if you suddenly found yourself with an  "ADVANTAGEOUS"  opportunity/situation to play in one  Atlantic City's remaining casinos??

[DaBurglar]

I have played 9/6 DDB in AC for a long time. To say things have changed for the worse is an understatement. In or around 2010 my favorite casino changed the pay table to 9/5 for DDB and reduced most other vp games pay schedules. So some would say that the negative expectation 9/6 game reduced to a 9/5 game went from a good game to not to bad game. Not true. Gone were the extended streaks that I enjoyed over the years to seeing DUD after DUD dealt. In my favorite casino I concentrated on 15 machines that I played for years. In one six week period I witnessed one machine hit the royal 5 times in a 6 week period. I hit 3 of them, my wife 1 and another player hit 1 as well. Long streaks of hitting multiple bonus hands or just multiple 4 of a kinds were suddenly gone. This condition has existed for the last 5 years. Yes I have hit quite a few royals since then but the machines just don't play the same as they did prior to 2010. There is no consistent play anymore either with my play or any other player that I encounter. So I am convinced that the pay tables are now only for display and not an actual account of what the payback percentages are. If you review the par sheets for a 9/6 DDB vs. a 9/5 DDB you will see that the frequency of hits are very much the same. The old explanation of "the machine is not getting enough play" just doesn't make sense anymore as I am now at another casino that has a great following but the machines are just as bad. You may say why do these people continue to go back and play week after week? In my experience over the years the majority of people play so badly that they are used to losing therefore they don't realize what is happening around them. They continue to go hoping for the
best but expecting the worst. This is what keeps the casinos in business.
Sorry for the long rant, but I bumped into this site and had to respond to this issue. HEY  Mr  "VPNUTNJ" !!!!!   whoever you are......this was one HELLUVA good first (and so far only) post!!!!!    I sincerely hope you stay and continue to post about your experiences in AC, since you clearly have seen, and experienced, EXACTLY what I have been maintaining is in fact the situation in Atlantic City the last 5 plus years!!!!!      My email is  club_da_burglar@yahoo.com   if you would care to contact me directly in person and we can share more experiences and knowledge regarding AC......I have quite a bit to share with respect what is going on with the AC / NJ gaming control enforcement (or lack thereof), the AC Press of Atlantic City Newspaper and its coverage of the casinos, the Unions, the decline of the city and how various people and organizations are dealing with it (or more specifically, FAILING to deal with it......)     If you are a regular patron of AC going back farther than simply the beginning of the Great Recession when the bottom essentially fell out of Atlantic City  then you no doubt have  alot of good perspective and experiences to share.

[FloridaPhil]

If what you guys are saying is true, than it's no wonder Atlantic City is in the dumper.   It wouldn't surprise me as everything that happens in Jersey seems to be rigged in some way.  I haven't played there in years and I don't intend to go back.   In all the places we have played, I have never seen anything that would lead me to think video poker machines are rigged.  What we have seen is a consistent pattern of reduced odds all across the country.  Personally, I'm boycotting any casino that doesn't offer a minimum of 98% games in quarters.  I'm sure they're shaking in their boots.  

[BobDancer]

[BobDancer]

I have not been in AC in about three years (I was at a Seven Stars get-together some time ago.) I played a few hours during that trip --- I think it was 9/6 Jacks at Caesars. We were still getting 1 tier credit per $10 at the time.I know several professional who claim, and I believe them, that there are opportunities there. I do not know the specifics of those opportunities.  Would I feel comfortable playing there regularly? Yes --- should I locate those opportunities (which should be that hard). I'm not going to play where the house has the edge. Although I don't know why I would want play there regularly. I prefer warm weather to cold. I prefer "West Coast personalities" to "East Coast personalities." I prefer places where there are lots of different opportunities for me to succeed at gambling. I like the housing prices in Nevada compared to the prices in other states. I like the tax structure in Nevada compared to those in other states. Me moving near New Jersey isn't in the top 500 things I plan to do with the rest of my life. Do I put much stock in the negative reports from recreational players? No I don't. The reports are overwhelmingly written by losing players. The winning players aren't talking. They're just doing their thing. The losing players are talking --- and always complaining. That creates a really biased sample. And there's the matter of skill. Most of the losing players simply do not have the skills of the winning players. And they are angry about it!Do I believe NJ has rigged video poker machines? Probably not. I don't have sufficient evidence one way or the other to form a judgment. But the fact that there are winning professionals there year after year indicates to me a strong likelihood that the games are fair. The fact that Frank Scoblete wrote years ago that video poker and slots are considered the same in New Jersey doesn't make it true. I disagreed with him when he wrote it. I disagree with him now. Just because his words keep getting dredged up doesn't make them any more accurate.Do I expect to be able to convince others one way or the other about this? No. Many players have their minds made up. Nothing I can say would change that.Do I intend to follow up my post with lots of other ones on this subject? No I don't. I've said my piece. The rest of you can knock yourselves out, if you like.Finally, if you want my best advice, here it is. Take notes. If you don't like it there, DON'T PLAY. Anyone who's silly enough to play without the edge AND THEN COMPLAIN HE IS LOSING is not somebody whose decisions I admire. If your favorite casino has tightened a game, find a new favorite. Or a new game with a better pay schedule. People who conclude that casinos have bad games and players MUST play them either doesn't understand free choice or isn't capable of exercising free choice.

[FAA]

I am an AC weekly regular. Once I definitively concluded for myself that the boardwalk is riddled with dud play, I abandoned it. On a bad day, I can expect to lose fifteen to twenty dollars an hour two miles west. The boardwalk virtually guarantees a bad day and losses at triple that rate. Hasta la vista, Boardwalk. The sun has set on your Empire!

[alpax]

Do I put much stock in the negative reports from recreational players? No I don't. The reports are overwhelmingly written by losing players. The winning players aren't talking. They're just doing their thing. The losing players are talking --- and always complaining. That creates a really biased sample. And there's the matter of skill. Most of the losing players simply do not have the skills of the winning players. And they are angry about it!

No I don't. I've said my piece. The rest of you can knock yourselves out, if you like.Finally, if you want my best advice, here it is. Take notes. If you don't like it there, DON'T PLAY. Anyone who's silly enough to play without the edge AND THEN COMPLAIN HE IS LOSING is not somebody whose decisions I admire. If your favorite casino has tightened a game, find a new favorite. Or a new game with a better pay schedule. People who conclude that casinos have bad games and players MUST play them either doesn't understand free choice or isn't capable of exercising free choice.



I personally view these statements as the best things that Mr. Dancer has ever stated. Everyone should reread this at least 100 times, and I am not joking.