Straight Talk About CS

[FloridaPhil]

Lets forget about the personal stuff and go with straight talk for a minute.  I enjoy the banter, but it's getting a little boring.  Most players think CS is boring anyway but this needs to be aired once and for all so we can move on to other issues. The math guys say Cheap Strategy causes you to lose more money than flat betting max coin.  OK, let's go with that.  CS has three very simple components.  Lets take each one and see where they have the problem.1. CS says to play single coin when playing negative expectation video poker games.  There are three good reasons to do this.  One, you lose less money per hour playing single coin on a negative machine. Two, you can often find a better pay table playing single coin on a higher denomination machine than you can at max coins on a smaller denomination machine.  Three, this allows a small budget player to play many more hands with the same money.2. CS says to switch to max coins after every 4 coin DW win.  It's true that the math says this causes you to lose more because you are betting more money on a negative expectation machine about 8% of the time, but it also gives you back the royal flush penalty 8% of the time.  Because you are able to play 3-4 times as many hands, you have 3-4 times more chances of hitting a good hand or a max coin jackpot recovering your loses or putting you ahead much faster than if you were playing single coin all the time.3. CS says to switch to dollar play when the counter runs to $25 or more.  This is optional.  I have had days where this hurt me and days where I hit huge (for a quarter player) jackpots.  Some days I make the decision to stay at max coins instead of moving up.  Overall I think increasing your bet is worth the risk even if all you gain is the anticipation of something really good happening.In summary, what we are doing is trading off the rare chance of a max coin royal for the much greater chance at a max coin quad deuce at a higher denomination.  For me it's a gamble I am willing to take and it's worked well for nearly three years.  Also, being able to play all day with a $250 bankroll  to me is worth whatever it costs because I am playing for fun, not profit.  I don't know how to state this any better than I have here.  I am not promoting CS, I am defending it from critics who never have and never will try it and don't understand why someone would want to play that way.  We are not looking for verification that CS is right for every situation.  What we want is an admission that CS players are not stupid or uninformed just because we don't have big bankrolls and want to enjoy the game as entertainment.

[onemoretry]

Because you are able to play 3-4 times as many hands, you have more 3-4 times more chances of hitting a good max coin hand or a max coin jackpot recovering your loses or putting you ahead much faster than if you were playing single coin all the time.

I really do not understand this statement at all. Yes, I agree that you can extend your playing time on a limited budget by playing only one coin.

But, I do not understand how this gives you more opportunities for max coin jackpots.   

[ko king]

Lets forget about the personal stuff and go with straight talk for a minute.  I enjoy the banter, but it's getting a little boring.  The math guys say Cheap Strategy causes you to lose more money than flat betting max coin.  OK, let's go with that.  CS is a number of very simple components.  Lets take each one and see where they have the problem.1. CS says to play single coin when playing negative expectation video poker games.  There are three good reasons to do this.  One, you lose less money per hour playing single coin on a negative machine. Two, you can often find a better pay table playing single coin on a higher denomination machine than you can at max coins on a smaller denomination machine.  Three, this allows a small budget player to play many more hands with the same money.2. CS says to switch to max coins after every 4 coin DW win.  It's true that the math says this causes you to lose more because you are betting more money on a negative expectation machine about 8% of the time, but it also gives you back the royal flush penalty 8% of the time.  Because you are able to play 3-4 times as many hands, you have more 3-4 times more chances of hitting a good max coin hand or a max coin jackpot recovering your loses or putting you ahead much faster than if you were playing single coin all the time.3. CS says to switch to dollar play when the counter runs to $25 or more.  This is optional.  I have had days where this hurt me and days where I hit huge (for a quarter player) jackpots.  Some days I make the decision to stay at max coins instead of moving up.  Overall I think increasing your bet is worth the risk.In summary, what we are doing is trading off the rare chance of a max coin royal for the much greater chance at a max coin quad deuce at a higher denomination.  For me it's a gamble I am willing to take and it's worked well for nearly three years.  Also, being able to play all day with a $250 bankroll  to me is worth whatever it costs because I am playing for fun, not profit.  I don't know how to state this any better than I have here.  I am not promoting CS, I am defending it from critics who never have and never will try it and don't understand why someone would want to play that way.


Here's where I believe the problem lies, Dancer would never allow himself to be exposed to a negative expectation situation, he's a professional, several steps above all but a few others. None of us can really relate to how he actually approaches the game or what it takes to be as successful as he contends himself to be. There's not doubt in my mind that if Dancer can do it I could do it also given the same exact set of circumstances. The problem I see with Dancer's approach is it's not a reality for players like myself but at the same time I understand I don't know it all. I have played vp for about 23 years now, I'm no dummy. I seek out the best pay tables AVAILABLE TO ME, I seek out the best comps and offers AVAILABLE TO ME, it's still not enough to provide me with anything close to a positive return anymore. It wasn't always as bad as it is now, in fact for about 18 years it was pretty good but it's gotten totally unacceptable for me now. Could Dancer help me, I really don't see how but it could be that I just plain old fashioned don't understand, maybe even he could beat the system I am exposed to. I honestly don't know of a single person in this area that lays claim to being a professional vp player. Truth is that vp used to be the game to play in this area, the casinos were packed with players, now you will have zero problem finding a machine to play. It's not the pay tables, decent pay tables are easy to find, it just cost more to play now that's why so many people quit playing, they didn't quit because they were doing as good or better, they were getting destroyed by machines that for whatever reason turned greedy. Now that's where I see a value to vp players who use CS, if you know and understand you're going to lose and accept that as fact the next step should be to control the losses. I no longer believe I have the slightest possibility of being a winner, common sense tells me either quit or start exploring ways to control losses. Dancers strategy may help me to lose less, I just don't know because I don't know how he does it. Your approach is an obvious strategy that would lead to me losing less money without a doubt so don't sweat the flak you're catching. With that said even I know that if I played max coin nickel vp I would lose less money, if I played single coin vp I would lose even less. At least with your strategy I have the chance to feel the excitement on occasions of hitting the big hand and lose less money in the process which is good thing so I have no problem with your approach and think you deserve a pat on the back for sharing, at zero cost I might add.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=ko king]I really do not understand this statement at all. Yes, I agree that you
can extend your playing time on a limited budget by playing only one
coin.
But, I do not understand how this gives you more opportunities for max coin jackpots.    [/quote]OK.   Suppose you walk into the casino with $250 in your pocket.  If you play max coin quarters you are guaranteed to play at least 200 hands at $1.25 each.  Most days you will bust before you hit a royal or a quad deuce so you can go home even or ahead.  When you play CS you are guaranteed to play at least 92% of your hands at .25 each and about 8% at 1.25 each which is normally well above 1,000 hands.   If you switch to dollars at $25 this could vary considerably.  Also when you are playing max coins with a small budget like that normally it's a slow drain on your wallet waiting for you to hit a royal, quad deuce or run out of money (common).  When Playing CS, you often have long runs of nothing where you are losing .25 a hand and then hit a max coin straight flush, 5-of-a-kind or wild royal and your bankroll recovers.  Because of this you have many more times the chance of hitting a decent hand even if it's at single coin.  The biggest problem a small budget recreational player has is running out of money (risk of ruin).   Our budgets are so small that this kills us way before anything goods happens. This is how casinos make most of their money and one of the main reason professional players do better than us.   Professionals only play when the odds are in their favor and they never run out of  money. 

[Tedlark]

A few questions.

In the originating post, in point #1.2, the comment about finding better paytables for single coin at higher denominations; what is considered higher denomination? For example, would a player be better off playing single coin at a $5.00 denomination machine or playing max coin on a single line $1.00 game?

In point #2 I am having a hard time completely digesting it in its entirety. Just because you are able to stretch play because of the single coin play doesn't mean you increase your chances of hitting a good max coin hand. This is because a player can never determine WHEN a good max coin hand is going to hit and this is why the "math guys" or even the more experienced players will tell you to play max coin all the time at a comfortable denomination.

The CS might be a good way to stretch play but in my opinion those who play the CS will lose in the long run because they are giving up the flush, 4oak, straight flush, and full house payouts.

I would much rather be a disciplined player who is comfortable winning a couple hundred a day and calling it a day gambling wise. Greed is the biggest enemy a player faces when in a casino

I have played my share of DW games in their various incarnations, including those that have the larger payouts for catching 5 aces and the higher payout for quad deuces with an ace. My DW play encompasses about 10% of my video poker play because to me, there are only 2 hands that a player can hit that will do them any good.

For those who do follow Phil's CS I wish you luck and for those who do not follow it, I also wish you luck.

[FloridaPhil]

Tedlark, thanks for posting these great questions.  Point #1A good example of this is the Tampa Hard Rock.  The .50 deuces pay schedule is almost two full points higher than the quarter schedule.  In Tampa, it's a better game to play .50 even if you play only single coin.  This is a very common situation in the South East.  The only time I play $5 machines is when I have more money in my pocket than I came in with.  I only play $5 machines $20 at a time and walk on almost every decent  win.  My total $5 play is normally not much more than $60 a day unless I get up significantly, then I tend to try a little longer.  $20 gives me at least four hands at $5 single coin play.   I never jump to $25 a hand unless I'm over $125 and even then I never give back my big wins.Point #2It's true you never know when a max coin jackpot is going to hit.  However, 1000 chances is 5 times better than 200.  I set my cash out limit at $50.  I do this to guarantee I will go home with some money in my pocket. I always go home with at least $100 and many times I break even or leave up significantly.  I'm not sure why I picked the $50 limit, but it's worked for a long time. Everyone agrees CS stretches your money, of that there is no discussion.  Because I set my cash out limit low at $50, I sometimes go home a winner without any big max coin wins.  This happens when you hit a bunch of single coin quad deuces or one at $1 or $5 play.  If you hit a single coin quad deuce at $1 play you won $200 as opposed to $250 with max coin quarters.  There are many ways you can win with CS and not that many where you lose all your money.  The only significant way I can lose all my money is to throw discipline out the window and go for broke. [quote=Tedlark]I would much rather be a disciplined player who is comfortable winning a
couple hundred a day and calling it a day gambling wise. [/quote]Not me.  I would rather play all day and let the jackpots happen on their own.  This is true because I really don't care if the math says it's wrong to do so.  My wallet tells me when I'm doing things right.  If my bankroll took a serious nose dive I may change my opinion, so far in the last three years CS has held up for me.On your last point, I totally agree.  Everyone is different and everyone has to make their own decision on how they play.  Contrary to what some pundits say, there is no perfect strategy in video poker because we all have different goals.  My problem with the expert is that he doesn't discuss things civilly as we are doing here, he just says he is always right and disparages anyone who disagrees.   I don't know everything, but I do know my own bank balance. 

[BobDancer]

 



























  My problem with the expert is that he doesn't discuss things civilly as we are doing here, he just says he is always right and disparages anyone who disagrees.  





























Hmm. I thought I was being civil. I thought it was FP who was the emotional one who resorted to name calling.I also thought that FP said he was going to stop defending this silly strategy. So much for being a man of his word.I, for one, will stop discussing the CS. Everybody here has heard more than they want to about it. I challenge FP to man up and do what he agreed to do.

[Tedlark]

"Not me. I would rather play all day and let the jackpots happen on their own."

Phil thinking (and playing) with this philosophy will hurt you under CS because the jackpots will undoubtedly occur much less frequently. I know though that hitting less jackpots looks good because a player is losing less by not playing max coin in. So in the CS; hitting a miracle potshot is the saving grace of the CS way, wouldn't you agree?

Edited to add: And if those miracle potshot hits do not happen then playing the CS will equate to a losing session?

[alpax]

Hmm. I thought I was being civil. I thought it was FP who was the emotional one who resorted to name calling.

For the most part, your analysis of CS has been very through and constructive; some people cannot handle criticism in general. I suppose FP wants you to feel empathy for the type of games available for the suited bankroll and the lack of casino club benefits due to no competition. You are about winning, FP is about having fun; that is where the difference lies. It does not make much sense for FP to ask a serious player who "needs" to play $100+ a round to all of a sudden play cheap.

"Not me. I would rather play all day and let the jackpots happen on their own."

Phil thinking (and playing) with this philosophy will hurt you under CS because the jackpots will undoubtedly occur much less frequently. I know though that hitting less jackpots looks good because a player is losing less by not playing max coin in. So in the CS; hitting a miracle potshot is the saving grace of the CS way, wouldn't you agree?

Edited to add: And if those miracle potshot hits do not happen then playing the CS will equate to a losing session?

I can answer this question for you and onemoretry since I've played an abbreviated version of CS and have done extensive analysis on it already.

FP is looking for quantity of play, whereas I am looking for quality of play. FP plays more in a single visit than I do in both of my bi-monthly visits. The CS is pretty much an artificial nickel denomination while adding more variance to a vp game. People like the swings of DDB, so experiencing the swings of CS can just be thrilling. It has a built in money management mechanism for FP's sanity. So even with $250 a week, most weeks FP will leave the casino with at least a little over $150. On days where quad deuces are hit, it is $50 more for each one per visit. On average, once out of every 6 trips, a $200/$250 quad deuces will hit and FP walks out with profit.

If you have Video Poker for Winners training software, it allows you to switch denominations (the calculations are somewhat buggy) and well as bet credits. It is the best way to simulate and experience what the CS actually feels like the at no harm of real money being wagered.

The $1000 jackpots you see has to be done by potshots, maybe at a time when the player is experiencing a losing streak. Progressing from single coin quarters to max coin dollars requires a streak, you make a few max coin dollar bets per day and that is not enough attempts to be lucky enough to hit quad deuces.

I just play everything increasing the bets by 5 folds.

Single Quarter -> Max Quarter
Max Quarter -> Max Dollar
Single Dollar -> Max Dollar
Max Dollar -> Max 5 Dollar

For Airport Deuces, it does not increase the loss rate by 5 folds for betting 5 folds, it only increases the loss rate by 2 since you will get the full royal amount. I'll put in $100 instead of $20, I will cash out at $250 instead of $50. But as a drawback, I cannot go to the casino every week and play for many hours.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=alpax]FP is looking for quantity of play, whereas I am looking for quality of
play. FP plays more in a single visit than I do in both of my bi-monthly
visits. The CS is pretty much an artificial nickel denomination while
adding more variance to a vp game. People like the swings of DDB, so
experiencing the swings of CS can just be thrilling. It has a built in
money management mechanism for FP's sanity. So even with $250 a week,
most weeks FP will leave the casino with at least a little over $150. On
days where quad deuces are hit, it is $50 more for each one per visit.
On average, once out of every 6 trips, a $200/$250 quad deuces will hit
and FP walks out with profit[/quote]This is a great analysis of CS and I greatly appreciate the effort to condense it into words anyone can understand.  If you take the time to really look at CS you will understand it's a fun way to play a lot of video poker without much money and have a decent chance of "getting lucky".  That's all I ever said it was.  Bob Dancer will never understand the motivation behind CS and I will never authenticate him as the world's greatest authority on recreational video poker play.   He is a successful marketer who has made money playing, writing and teaching others to play video poker, but he knows nothing about today's VP world outside of the high limit room.  This is not meant as an attack, it's the obvious truth that anyone except himself can plainly see.  If you live in his world, I say follow his advice and instruction to a T.   If not and you're not happy with what you're doing, maybe you should try something else?  I think we have uncovered the real truth about CS in this thread and why it may be an option for a small denomination recreational player like myself.  Good luck no matter how you play!