Open Video Poker Forum?

[FloridaPhil]

My understanding when I signed on to this website was that this forum is a free and open discussion and
that as long as no lines were crossed, anything goes.  I want all the members to know that I have nothing against Bob Dancer's video poker strategies as long as they are limited to the environment he plays in.   His expertise as a high stakes
video poker player goes unchallenged as far as I'm concerned.  Personally,
I find him immensely
entertaining and his comments often give me a chuckle even when they are
directed at me.   I have
made it
no secret that I do not agree with his attempts to legitimize
professional gambling as a profession.   I also understand that my
standards of what constitutes a worthwhile professional undertaking may
be different than many members, but I do not apologize for my core
beliefs.I am not the
first person to be called out on this forum for discussing a strategy
that goes against the blessing of Mr. Dancer.  I enjoy this website, but if everyone who challenges
him is labeled "Dangerous" or "No Nothing" the discussions will be limited to fractional odds differences and once upon a time jackpot stories.   If that's what the members want fine, but I think this forum will be a pretty boring place to hang out.   You may not agree with my personal video poker strategies, but you do have to admit I have gone out of my way to substantiate my claims.  I have done this in the way of cellphone photos taken as I played.  I posted them to this forum upon my return and discussed them openly in real time.  If you look back over all my posts you will see this is a fact.  No other player whether he/she be recreational or professional has ever offered this level of proof.  I guess what some people want me to do is to produce a top 10 accounting firm audit!The gambling establishment's desperation for players is a product of their own demise.  The constant downgrading of game odds and comps is causing players to question the honesty of the games, take their recreational dollars elsewhere and/or change the way they play.  I am doing nothing more than protecting my finances and attempting to make a playable game out of a system that continues to increase their share to the point where no one will play. I enjoy being a member of this forum and contributing my thoughts, but
if a time comes when my input is not desired I can move on to other
outlets for my energies.  I hope that doesn't happen, but I would rather do that than be subjected to unwarranted and ugly attacks because I refuse to apply professional strategies to recreational play.   If you only want to hear one voice on video poker strategy, it will not be difficult to find.

[DAAnMAAn]

I may disagree with what you say (not totally though) but will defend to the death your right to say it However, after reading your arguments, I think there can be nice uses of the cs strategy and due to it's flexibility, can be tweeked and molded into personal tastes.FloridaPhil, although I am not an advocate of any Cheap Strategy of VP of betting less than full coins, mainly because the math is math, a player is giving the casino approximately an extra 1.5% in expected return...I understand the reasons for you and others to do so. Playing poor paytables is certainly a great argument for playing some sort of CS method, although yet again one is relinquishing 1.5% ER.Bottom line, I enjoy differing opinions, it's what makes life interesting. The funny part is, I don't think you and Dancer are really that much apart, in terms of playing the poorer paytables, less coins is better. A point you two would agree with I'm sure. Not playing them at all maybe even better, but what is the fun of that?!And truthfully, most casinos don't offer very good paytables of VP anymore anyway. Regardless, if I was playing at a place in which their best game was, say, 8/5 JOB, I may give some consideration of giving CS a shot after reading your arguments...hey,, have some fun with it, and see how long I can last on very little coin. Sounds like fun actually. True story, once many moons ago I was vacationing at casablanca resorts in Mesquite with my wife, and lost my $900 gamble bankroll for the 3 day weekend down to $20 dollars left with still a whole night left to play. So I guess I did a cheap strategy without even knowing what it was, playing a single quarter at a time ,sometimes two or three at the most if I hit something, but went quickly back to one quarter...long story short, played all fricking night before losing the $20 at the vp bar.So I believe there is a place for it. For the budget conscious video poker player, for lasting on the poor paytables, or just seeing how long one can last on $10 bucks at a video poker bar playing a quarter at a time on 8/5 JOB...So I know Dancer can be sometimes annoying, egotistical, and right nearly all the time. I think sometimes he misses the boat or misinterprets what one is trying to say occasionally. Hey, it's an open forum, and opinions will be challenged and questioned. Don't take it personally. Like my father used to say, "open your mouth and at least 5% of the people will disagree with you. So don't worry about it."Cheers

[FAA]

If you ask ten people, you'll end up with eleven opinions. It never fails.One forum feud is plenty. This most recent, nascent feud is more of a David vs. Goliath. The guy who needs no introduction is gleefully banging away at $25 a hand, ringing up comps and gifts galore and grabbing Positive Expectation games. The other guy is doing his own version of the Rope a Dope. 90% of his play is a quarter, on machines with awful pay tables. Their back and forth makes no sense to me, but like all soap opera is immensely entertaining. This is VP Daytime Drama.  

[BobDancer]

You weren't playing CS, Dan. You were playing a one-coin strategy.If that were what CS was, I wouldn't be putting it down nearly as vehemently as I do. But CS also includes MAXING your bet at a higher stake 10% or so of the time.That is, on average, play 90 hands 25c at a time and 10 hands $5 at a time. That's the Kool Aid he's trying to sell. The net is a system that gives 2/3 as much coin-in as a 5-coin system but with 1.5% less EV. (Not to mention that you need two different strategies --- which he ignores and says 98% accuracy is close enough.)Nobody question's FP's goals of --- losing at a slower rate and retaining the chance of success while minimizing the chances of loss. Nice goals --- but his strategy doesn't meet those goals. The players he's try to convince to use it aren't knowledgeable enough, generally, to know how bad the math behind it is.Being a recreational player DOES NOT mean you're automatically a master of designing a money management system suitable for recreational players. Being a recreational player generally means you haven't studied the game very much and have other things in your life more important than video poker theory. (most of us are recreational players in most things in our life. It's not a bad thing. nobody can be an expert about everything)That would mean a recreational player has LESS knowledge about designing a money management system than a professional player would.Is a college freshman better at writing a textbook for freshman than a full professor when the full professor hasn't been a freshman for decades? Most thinking people would tell you 'no.' And yet that's equivalent to the argument that FP uses to claim his expertise. It's ludicrous!FP only posts his ideas on a forum where you mostly have recreational players who aren't savvy enough to challenge his ideas. Go ahead and post them on vpFREE or other places where more competent players hang out! His theories will be cut to shreds! while there will always be folks who don't like me, my writings have survived in that cauldron. Intelligent players acknowledge that my writings are generally correct. That will never be the case for FP so long as he keeps promoting his CS.A key part of FPs argument is "it's worked for him so far --- but that win is irrelevant." Who knows what that means? One person's results over a short period of time is hardly relevant in discussing a money management system. Even if we could believe his scores, it wouldn't be relevant. The relevant measure of a money management scheme is that if 10000 people tried it for hundreds of thousands of hands, would it work? The answer for CS is clearly 'no'. anyone with a basic understanding of money management systems can see that.For those who say 'you don't know until you try it,' clearly your study beforehand is rather limited --- (probably the definition of a recreational player) --- or else you would already know. FP says he posts pictures of his results. Maybe. He posts pictures of some occasional hands --- usually his successes. Having occasional successes does not say anything about the other thousands of hands you've played or what your overall results are.One of FP's supports asked "if FPs claims weren't true, why would he lie about it?" The answer is, because "being right" is important to him. He likes milking his 15 minutes of fame as much as he can. The nice thing, Dan, about discussing FP here is he can't respond here. He's promised only to post in the Recreational Forum and this is the Video Poker Strategy  Forum. What a wonderful site!

[royal flush]

i read your articles on another website which are very well written i to am an advantage player with the markets writing options (the only way one can get an edge besides hft) i used to count cards but that played itself out. you sold your information and made good money ( i respect that even though it has reduced many vp opportunities) you did as a pitcher lowering his era nearing his contract renewal does, that's just good business. we must all evolve or parish as it is a "cat and mouse game". and as far as being a "professional gambler" you have been very honest with the forum so we know it is not like a "James bond" movie. The days of 3% promotion and dollar fpdw with comps are like disco gone

[alpax]

You weren't playing CS, Dan. You were playing a one-coin strategy.If that were what CS was, I wouldn't be putting it down nearly as vehemently as I do. But CS also includes MAXING your bet at a higher stake 10% or so of the time.That is, on average, play 90 hands 25c at a time and 10 hands $5 at a time. That's the Kool Aid he's trying to sell.


Although it will not make any difference as the rest of Mr. Dancer's points are correct in theory; it is not jumping around from single quarter to max dollar. It is jumping to max quarters. If the balance is at $25 (from starting point at $20), it will be single dollars jumping to max dollars. Thus the max dollar play is less than 1% of the time, single dollar play is about 8% of the time, and max quarter play is 10% of the time, single quarter is about 81% of the time.

Dan, you are in the Vegas jurisdiction and have income the last time I checked. You can abandon playing CS.

It seems like the clear cut number one goal is that FP "has to play" 5000 or more quantity rounds. None of my business what goes on with each player's family lives, but I think the amount of losing has to be cut at the same time. FP claims to be retired so I respect that the funds / bankroll growth is small from Social Security Insurance, Pension, or 401k/403b retirement plan.

( i respect that even though it has reduced many vp opportunities) you did as a pitcher lowering his era nearing his contract renewal does, that's just good business.

Zack Grienke did just that this 2015 season. We will see how much it pays off, I'm sure he is due for a good payday.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Bob Dancer]One of FP's supports asked "if FPs claims weren't true,
why would he lie about it?" The answer is, because "being right" is
important to him. He likes milking his 15 minutes of fame as much as he
can. [/quote]Mr. Dancer.  I agreed not to discuss CS on the Strategy forum and I have complied.  I also agreed to back off on our so called drama and make peace with you.  Do you think this means I should sit still and let you continue to take shots at me without responding?  You said I wouldn't keep my word.   I want everyone here to know that you are the one who started this up again.   If this is what you want,  I am more than up to the challenge.We all know you won some money years ago.  Since then, you have been using that lucky streak  to sell your self described superior intellect at $50 bucks a pop to players hoping to duplicate your smoke and mirrors success story.  Those days are in the past and your story is getting pretty old and worn at this point.Here's something that's real.  My video poker play is $3,000 positive over the last three years and that is a fact.  My website currently shows $18,000 in real wins.  Not too shabby for a guy who plays quarters 90% of the time. I said I was lucky, but you keep digging away at me like I'm trying to develop the theory of everything. Where is your proof?   Hell will freeze over before anyone sees anything but old pictures of you and your ex wife smiling in front of one lucky jackpot.  I'm not saying you don't know a lot about video poker, you obviously do. You also know better than anyone here that winning in video poker is about being at the right place at the right time and no amount of skill, savvy, intelligence or strategy can force that to happen year after year into infinity.  Soon or later your luck will change and you will be one of the losers, if you're not one already.  The real difference between us is that you will lose big and I will lose a few quarters.As far as fame is concerned, what kind of fame is it to be known as the king of sitting on your ass all night in a smoky casino?   I am a very successful retired businessman.  I founded a computer services company when I was 21 years old and am confident I made more money honestly than you have made in your whole life.  The fact that I don't choose to throw it away in a casino is something I'm hardly ashamed of.  I don't need fame on this website to become some kind of cereal box hero, you are the one who seems to be going for that honor.Why are you so concerned about some stupid little quarter strategy anyway?  Is it because your sales pitch is so full of holes that you feel threatened by some old guy in Florida playing quarters on his day off or are you so desperate for money that you feel the need to squash every threat? Pitiful....Note: This thread was edited a few times in an attempt to calm down some of the original things I had to say about Bob Dancer.  He's obviously had a bad time in the last few years and I don't want to make it any worse.  I actually feel sorry for him at this point and wish he would stop his personal attacks, but he insists on taking out his personal problems on me.  

[DAAnMAAn]

I can sort of understand where you both are coming from (FP and Dancer). Maybe you both can just agree to disagree and stop trying to convince each other which goes nowhere anyway. I propose a stalemate and just agree to disagree without going personal. Both have made very good arguments when not getting personal imo. Let the readers make up their minds.
Cheers

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=DAAnMAAn]I propose a stalemate and just agree to disagree without going personal. [/quote]I thought that's where we were before Bob decided to sling some more arrows at me yesterday morning.  I could care less if Bob Dancer wins or loses and I certainly don't wish him any more problems than he already has.  All I'm asking for is to be able to discuss video poker as I see it openly without being the subject of personal attacks.  This forum has a history of similar abuses.  Whenever someone questions Mr. Dancer's opinions or claims, they are berated and insulted until they either concede or go away permanently.   I am the first person who offered actual proof that he is not always right and that is why I have been singled out.  There is no doubt that he is the unquestionable authority on high stakes professional video poker play, but he is misinformed when it comes to small budget recreational players and strategies.If this is in fact an open forum and not a platform to sell Bob Dancer, this shouldn't be a problem.  I am not a lair and I'm not looking for fame on this website or anywhere else.  We'll see if he upholds the peace this time or goes on tilt again.  Of course he could always get one of his legions to do the dirty work, but I sincerely hope it holds this time.

[BobDancer]

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