Video Poker is a Beatable Game

[DAAnMAAn]

This has been an entertaining but sad thread indeed...for I'd like to see vp players United than divided, but with any profession/hobby disagreements will be part of it I suppose.
At any rate, I just heard the latest 'gambling with an edge' show about moving to Vegas and becoming a professional gambler. I'm not sure why one needs to move to Vegas as there are gambling opportunities all over the place. But from what I understand, at least with vp, some places just have poor expected return games no matter what promotion comes. We do what he have to do.
I play low stakes vp with pot shots here and there, but would likely fall in the 5k to 20k category a year category. Not enough to stop working, but enough to pay for some extras. This has been consistent the last few years and not every month is a winning month for sure. This October being one of them. But the good months have weathered the bad ones thankfully. I've plugged the leaks a long time ago (stop playing craps, roulette,
Slots (although I understand sometimes in rare circumstances can be positive EV).
I'm mostly a quarter player so don't rely that much on cash back and such, but play over 100% or close to it games only. Fpdw, 10/6 ddb, 10/7 dbp, so on. Lowest I may play is bonus poker (99.17% ER) but usually it's because of high promotion with points, drawings, give-always, or whatever.
Not a pro by any means, but definitely think it's possible, but not easy. As the saying goes, a tough way to make an easy living.
Perhaps that is how it should be. For if everyone was a pro, casinos would cease to exist or at least, not offer that particular game anymore.
Anyway, not claiming it's the best play, but a positive one, and an example...its mathematically sound that one can study fpdw (100.76%) available in .25c and play accurately and make about $10 an hour theoretical. In a normal 40 hr work week, that's 400 a week, 1600 a month, $19,200 a year. Just one example.
I enjoy the discussion and debates, don't enjoy the personal shots. To each their own.
Cheers

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Alpax]I am recreational player like FP and DB, and I lack even more knowledge of other things the professionals must do that is not posted on this forum but I will always try hard to play the best I can based on what I do know, at the same time for fun and entertainment even though I may not become a long term winner.[/quote]I also think this has been a great thread.  We now have a small understanding of how professional video poker players earn their money.  I never had any problem accepting the fact that Bob Dancer earns good money.  Personally, I will never believed his sales pitch that he earns it all totally through the keyboard of a video poker machine.  The Dancer Dream infers that with enough skill a regular player can beat a video poker game if you follow his strategy.  This is totally untrue unless you want to count raffle drawings, super comps and show up money as income. Most buyers of his software and books do not have these advantages, so they fail and can't understand why.  What you choose to believe is up to you.I am honestly not concerned with Bob Dancer or professional play at all.  I  respond to his juvenile personal attacks, but I am primarily only concerned with low denomination recreational play which is all I do.   CS was developed to give small denomination recreational players playing seriously negative games a better chance of winning or breaking even over flat betting max coins and that's all there is to it. If Bob Dancer wants to turn it into something dangerous or potentially destructive, I can't stop him.   So far this has been a free and open forum and he's entitled to his own opinion and so am I.

[royal flush]

we can infer that mr dancer had one big year and he parlayed that into a businss of selling his vp materials. since that has caused many players to improve either by playing better paytables and playing the games better (to mr dancers credit) the flip side of this the games have declined as the house fights back. this hurts other advantage players but like anything we must adapt and stop whining about the good old days. mr dancer gears his posts to the higher level players as thats where most of the remaining plays are. he has been very truthful about the ups and downs of being a pro both on his bankroll and his relationships

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=royal flush]we can infer that mr dancer had one big year and he parlayed that into a
businss of selling his vp materials. since that has caused many players
to improve either by playing better paytables and playing the games
better (to mr dancers credit) the flip side of this the games have
declined as the house fights back. this hurts other advantage players
but like anything we must adapt and stop whining about the good old
days. mr dancer gears his posts to the higher level players as thats
where most of the remaining plays are. he has been very truthful about
the ups and downs of being a pro both on his bankroll and his
relationships[/quote]No argument here.  Like I stated before, if you have all the advantages of a professional player... play like one.  If not, get used to losing or try something that works better for your own situation.

[DaBurglar]

likewise, Bob does not need to show people a tax return, or bank
statement to refute the skeptics ...... all he would need to do (again
IF....IF he wants to put it to rest) is show his BASIC, simple  Video
POKER PLAY Statistics for a given period (say a year) at a casino he
plays at, showing the simple coin in, total profit and/or total loss.   
THAT IS IT....Voila!   End of story.....and all the people who doubt
him and his way of doing things are left holding their resentment and
jealousy like limp sausages that have been in the Spaghetti sauce too
long!       Yeah, right. What's you're suggesting wouldn't serve any useful purpose. It would provide no transparency (in lower case or CAPS) and it certainly wouldn't silence any critics.There are casinos where I've lost more than $100K in a year. There are casinos where I've won more than $200K in a year. (A couple of casinos fit both categories, in separate years.)Whatever records I posted, anybody could correctly argue that it's just part of the story. It's like posting pictures of $1000 jackpots but without posting any of your losing sessions. an accurate picture is only obtained over a very long period of time. Am I ever planning on posting that? Not on your life.

Thanks for proving my point(s)......and clearly you are not someone who has an ounce of empathy (or any other positive personal quality), because you do not perceive that YOU do, say, employ all of the things you accuse others of doing, saying, employing.    Your other post above where you say your posts are more "polite" is but one example, what a crock!!!      But this is nothing new.....as you say, you do not "suffer fools lightly", except in your case most everyone else is a fool.     And whatever emotion(s) you perceive spewing forth from either FP (or my own) posts are at least equaled from your posts, anyone can see that (like I said, obviously a nerve or two was touched.)   Except, in my case, the emotions are mostly laughter and amusement at how full of yourself you really are.......I've known (and still do) lots of people who spend all or most of their lives in and around casinos and gambling (in all capacities, including gamblers)......I witnessed the "boom" in Vegas from 1992 through 2007 from an outside/inside perspective, in that the company I worked for in Los Angeles benefited from this "boom" and I was fortunate to spend a lot of time around Vegas and casinos as a vendor, which in turn helped my status as a visitor during those times when I could enjoy it, and I learned a lot.   One thing I definitely learned is that, over time, people who spend all their time in casinos pay a steep price in terms of how it impacts them as a human being.....the constant overstimulation, the hollowness of the entire atmosphere and the relentless emphasis on money and the pressure it brings, it is very similar to people I know and went to school with who work on Wall Street.....you become a bore, pathetic, unable to empathize or relate to people on anything even close to a decent manner.   In short, you  turn into an obnoxious individual, who thinks everyone else is " just too stupid to possibly know what I know, or understand what I understand....Case in point is your absolute refusal to even consider what I suggested (and it was a SUGGESTION, not a REQUEST or a DEMAND before anyone starts that BS again), about providing a simple Casino summary of your play:    OBVIOUSLY, if you only provided a single casino's statement (when you clearly play at more than ONE) that would tell us nothing....!!!    of course if you lost X amount or even Won X amount at any single casino this is pointless.....!!!! the fact that you would resort to this example in trying to dodge or refute my "idea"  is indication of just how stupid and simple you think everyone is......What you COULD do is provide a one years SUMMARY showing ALL the casinos you played at and the results......that is it.   A year is significant enough to provide a basis for you refuting all the skeptics and doubters....or provide two or three years even since you no doubt will say something like "yeah but my results can vary from year to year a LOT"!   Ok fine, then simply provide a summary of several year (or as many as you can)....THIS IS NOT COMPLICATED or HARD or POINTLESS as you would insist and have everyone believe.  It would go a long way in proving all your claims and silencing people who doubt you......is it going to cover EVERY SINGLE issue or doubt?  No, but it will go a lonnnnnng way, and give you far more credibility than your insistence that what you do is far too complex or Byzantine for anyone else to comprehend.Bob, you are a video poker player, not a surgeon or pastor or Professor.....you are not a genius, you didn't cure a disease, you are not supporting a cause or charity (or even a family as far as we know)....you play video poker for a living.....and simultaneously sell your "expertise" to people willing to pay for it.....nothing wrong with any of this.   But it is not a mystery or profound in any way what you do, and does not justify this superior, elite mentality you manifest ......on the contrary, I actually think you'd be far more successful if you changed your whole tact and ditched the arrogance in favor of just saying nothing when "fools come calling"......in other words, "Suffer all these fools in silence"....or better yet, try kindness.   If you truly are as good as you claim, and have it all figured out, and are as successful and wealthy at what you do as you want everyone to believe, then all these "fools" you "Suffer" should not even trouble you, they should not even register except perhaps to take pity on them.    Unless.......there really is some validity to the "other side" of this issue..... WHICH you can go a long way to clobbering if you provide more transparency.That being said, as for myself, I am not that offended personally by your snottiness, and although I cannot specifically identify where I was impolite in any of my posts (except where I was responding to your impoliteness), if I did say anything truly hurtful to you I apologize for THAT, but as someone who makes a living in Vegas and spends all their time in casinos, I would think you had a thick layer of skin by now. But there is NOTHING wrong, or outrageous, or uncalled for in what I am SUGGESTING would HELP BOB in terms of addressing his critics, skeptics and naysayers.     

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=DaBurglar]And whatever emotion(s) you perceive spewing forth from either FP (or my
own) posts are at least equaled from your posts, anyone can see that
(like I said, obviously a nerve or two was touched.)[/quote]Please keep me out of this discussion.  I think we have wasted too much space already on this subject and I think it's pretty obvious where we all stand.  There is no point in rehashing it over and over again.  I'm done with it and wish it would go away. 

[onemoretry]

   CS was developed to give small denomination recreational players playing seriously negative games a better chance of winning or breaking even over flat betting max coins and that's all there is to it.

I believe that his point (and I agree with it) is that, despite all the smoke and mirrors of the system, the CS system does not give the player a better chance of breaking even. Varying bet size and taking the occasional pot shot does not make an already negative game any less negative.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing that way. It can be more fun and exciting. But, it is, in my opinion, wrong to think that it gives you a better chance of winning.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry]But, it is, in my opinion, wrong to think that it gives you a better chance of winning.[/quote]I respectfully disagree.  I don't want to get into a detailed discussion of CS on this forum.  I will be happy to on the Recreational Forum.  Let's just say that I play max coin quarter DW all day.  What's the best that can happen...one or more $250 quad deuces or a very rare royal for $1,000.  A wild royal only pays $31.25 on a good game.  CS gives you a decent shot at a $1,000 quad deuce and a $4,000 royal.  This happens frequently enough to turn the tide in your favor.  Some days you will not hit a quad deuce,  but will be bailed out with multiple $125 wild royals or $75 5-of-a-kinds.I've played both ways and I've done much better with CS over the last three years than I ever did playing max coin quarters.  It really doesn't matter how you play as long as you feel like you got your money's worth. 

[rascal]

Well.....in his latest batch of posts Bob responded to everyone who addressed him except for me. I guess I'm flattered that my post was unrespondable, if that's a word.

One of the points that has been touched on is that Dancer has a varied income stream - it's more than just playing video poker. But, as he wrote, playing video poker creates the majority of his income. In a place like Vegas, that requires him to walk a very fine line. Not only does he teach classes for pay at one or more of the casinos, but he also cannot risk alienating the casinos that provide him with mailers and actual places to play. Thus, he would be stark raving crazy to post on this forum anything other than "Video Poker Is A Beatable Game." He's not going to *publically* announce that video poker in and of itself cannot be beaten over time.

I don't think he's doing anything that thousands of other businessmen have not done. You gotta do what you gotta do to earn a living. Casinos have banned top players for winning and it's been upheld that a private business has the right to do that. Dancer, despite being known as a top player, still has places to play in Vegas. Part of the price for that is a very disciplined and unwavering public stance that "Video Poker Is A Beatable Game."

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=rascal]Not only does he teach classes for pay at one or more of the casinos,
but he also cannot risk alienating the casinos that provide him with
mailers and actual places to play. Thus, he would be stark raving crazy
to post on this forum anything other than "Video Poker Is A Beatable
Game." He's not going to *publically* announce that video poker in and
of itself cannot be beaten over time.
[/quote]You think?     and I may add he will attack anyone who does so.