Do Pay Tables Really Matter?

[case]

I remember playing a machine at Gold Coast for well over 2 hours and could not get a 4 of a kind. It cost me a lot of money but I kept trying and nothing. The very next morning I left the room and went right back to the same machine and sure enough it was on fire. Hit lots of 4 of a kinds and machine played well above expected value.

So my point is randomness.....You just never know. We all hit ice cold machines and start to wonder. Of course the opposite also happens when a machine just keeps paying out.

Casinos don't need to fix machines to win. Sure they could make more money "rigging" but ONLY until the people stop coming in (or they lose their license). Would you rather have 500 people a day on your machines, or have them sitting empty.

[pokerpokerpoker]

I am right behind Vman in my beliefs that the machines are random, yet I much prefer the "old" style machines. Although my sample size is small, the old machines just "seem" more reliable. Good days and bad days, sure. The new server based ones just "seem" to go through horrible dry spells followed by a flurry of hits. Dealt quads though "seem" more common on the new machines. I almost hate to post such thoughts.

At one of my locals, the new games have great paytables, yet are not played. The old machines, with lower paytables, are busy. I wonder why?

All that said, my 2015 results were right along expectation playing a mix of old and new.

[notes1]

i am easily confused. what is the difference between voicing one's opinion that the machines are different or changed over a particular time period and someone else stating that old machines 'seem' more reliable and new server machines 'seem' to go through more dry spells?  i thought random was random and suggesting anything else was reason enough to label one a believer in conspiracies.

[DaBurglar]

Since we are starting a new year I am going to bring up a subject that I am sure has been discussed before. Maybe not in the exact same context but in light of the fact that casinos are lowering pay tables almost everywhere. I would love to hear from everyone. The mathematicians, the old pros, and the recreational players.

My home property is Horseshoe Bossier City but during the course or the year I also play at the CET properties in Vegas, Atlantic City, Tahoe, and others. What got me thinking about bringing up this topic is that there is one machine in particular at my home property that you can play for as little as $5 ($1 level max bet). I always throw a few hundred at this machine every time I go there but it is either rigged or something else is going on with it because I always lose on this machine. I play it because it has 8/5 Bonus Poker on it with a $5000 jackpot if you hit the royal. On the surface if you put 100% of your faith in the math you would think that you could go there and camp out on this machine and churn out tons of tier credits at little of no cost or perhaps win on it every now and then.

This machine is in their HLR and I know it has been there at least the last couple of years. Horseshoe BC is a fairly busy property and there is not a shortage of avid VP players there. But most of the time this machine is available. It used to be hard to get on. I have talked to quite a few of the other players and they all said that they had played it but had similar results to what I had.

I am beginning to wonder if pay tables matter as much as they used to. With a computer you can do anything. So maybe even though this particular machine pays 5 for a flush and 8 for a full house and 5000 credits for a royal flush I am wondering if this machine is programmed to give out less than the alotted amount of flushes, full houses, and 4 OAK's that you would expect if the RNG was operating as it should be.

My best hit this past year was playing STP DDB with a 7/5 pay table. So in light of all this I am perplexed and am wondering if any of you have stumbled upon machines that either seem like they either don't let you win or surprise you by paying back better than you were expecting. I have been playing VP for about 10 years and have read several books and know to look for 9/6 pay tables but I am beginning to wonder if there is something more to it than that. I am coming across more and more people that sincerely believe that I should quit paying attention to the pay tables. And they have got me beginning to wonder as well.

Excellent post and good question(s) & observations.    As VMAN stated this is an ongoing debate and everyone has an opinion....mine are well known and in line with what you just posted.    VMAN is one of the more intelligent and reasonable posters here (as well as one of the least "jerkiest", and that includes me.....)     His viewpoint whereby he generally does not believe Casinos are doing anything to their VP machines other than allowing the RNG & paytables to do their thing is tempered with his reasonable caveat , whereby he at least ALLOWS for the possibility that some casinos may be messing with some of their VP machines....His question about why a casino would have a game, like the 8/5 Bonus poker (99.2%) game mentioned in the original post, that is apparently "RIGGED" to not yield results anywhere near the expected 99% return, while at the same time having machines with "worse" paytables that seemingly yield close to what they should, is a good question but also a pretty straightforward question, in my opinion.....I believe this is done simply because some players (like you, Mr seemoreroyals) will gravitate to the "better" paytable, 8/5, and play a lot longer than other games, ergo the casino gets more money.    But also at times, the casino will CHANGE the game back to where & what it should be such that OTHER players yield more reasonable results, thereby confounding any true blue investigators who might be watching.   aLso, the same casino could "mess" with any and all other machines in a similat fashion, changing the games up frequently enough to confound anyone (like me for instance) who is seriously keeping an eye on things....thereby it all just looks like some hopelessly random mess that yields consistent profit to the casino (the ultimate goal).....the assumption that the casino would make a profit anyway and therefore does NOT need to do such activity is no longer a valid assumption in this day and age, as has been proven time and again on this forum and in real life.     In other words, casinos are no longer "SURE THINGS", which is why crap like this rigged 8/5 machine now exists in a multitude of places.

[FAA]

Case, wth prompted you to go back to the very same ice cold machine in the morning? I would have left with my tail between my legs. A two hour quad free session is a pure bust for me.

[DaBurglar]

Case, wth prompted you to go back to the very same ice cold machine in the morning? I would have left with my tail between my legs. A two hour quad free session is a pure bust for me.In theory, if the game is NOT rigged, then it would be expected that at least a few quads should now be in the making, no?     Oh sure I know, a true RNG that is truly "random" means nothing of the sort, but nonetheless, some Quads should be coming

[case]

Case, wth prompted you to go back to the very same ice cold machine in the morning? I would have left with my tail between my legs. A two hour quad free session is a pure bust for me.We were staying at the casino so I was going to be playing anyway. I told myself I would just play for a little while and see how it went on this machine. 4OAK  started hitting right away so I played  and things went great. It does not always work this way but did this time. I usually move around the casino a lot so don't play along time on one machine.  Thing is FAA, you might play and go home with your tail between your leg and then might return a week later to try again. All the same just a shorter time frame.

[case]

[QUOTE=FAA]Case, wth prompted you to go back to the very same ice cold machine in the morning? I would have left with my tail between my legs. A two hour quad free session is a pure bust for me.In theory, if the game is NOT rigged, then it would be expected that at least a few quads should now be in the making, no?     Oh sure I know, a true RNG that is truly "random" means nothing of the sort, but nonetheless, some Quads should be coming[/QUOTE]You know DaBurglar I agree with you. Even though it is random and machine has no memory  your mind tells you "it is due". Deep down we know this means nothing but we play a lot with our gut. Same thing when a machine hits, I often move to a new machine. Does it make any difference...of course not, but  my "superstitions" takes over.

[seemoreroyals]

If there is more to it than the paytables, then casinos and machine manufacturers are breaking Louisiana and many other state laws. But probably half of this forum seriously believes this is what happening. I don't, but I can't entirely rule illegal activity either. But if a casino was bothering to break the law, why even offer a 7/5 DDB paytable somewhere else in the casino? And your best hit being on a 7/5 DDB STP doesn't strike me as too odd unless it was on nickels or pennies. Or you only played that game once all year... STP can lead to huge hits at times, especially with DDB.


I don't think the casino is breaking the law either but since the royal on the machine in question pays 5000 instead of 4000 I was wondering on this particular game if it is programmed to produce a lower amount of small wins and more duds to make up for the bigger royal. It is not a progressive. It pays 5000 all the time. The extra 1000 credits on the royal would add about 1 percent to the overall return? I may need some help with this as I am not sure if it adds a little more or a little less than that but when programming the machine they could compensate for the bigger royal by lowering the number of flushes, full houses, and 4 oak's you would normally expect and still comply with whatever laws exist. This could explain why there is no longer many people playing this machine.

The 7/5 DDB STP I got my best hit on last year was at Bally's Las Vegas. The only reason I was playing it was because it was next to some friends that were playing triple play ULT X. Go figure. Normally I would not consider playing such a machine. The logical part of me has me constantly looking for the best pay tables I can find regardless of where I play.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=seemoreroyals] The logical part of me has me constantly looking for the best pay tables I can find regardless of where I play.
[/quote]Relying on pay tables has gotten me into more trouble over the years.  You keep telling yourself that better pay tables mean more winning, but it doesn't happen that way. I agree better pay tables allow you to play longer with the same money, but they don't guarantee any more jackpots.  On any given day a blind chimpanzee with a dart has the same chance of picking a winning game as a so called expert.  Sorry if I insulted any chimpanzees...Does this mean we should ignore pay tables or convince ourselves the games are rigged if better odds don't pan out?  Hardly, gambling is gambling and some days you win some days you lose. We are betting our money on the random shuffle of a computer chip, not on the laws of physics.  The idea that anyone can consistently beat this game with some kind of skill, methodology or disciple alone is ridiculous.  All you can do is pick the best games, play them well and hope for the best.