Downgrade in Quick Quads machines at South Point

[BobDancer]

               For those who
don't read long posts until the end --- next Wednesday's class at South
Point will be Bonus Poker Quick Quads --- NOT Double Double Bonus Quick
Quads. Now some background . . .

               Yesterday, I was
told by Michael Gaughan, owner of the South Point, that the Quick
Quads machines would all be downgraded prior to the next double point day ---
which will be on President’s Day, Monday, February 15. He said they were losing
too much on the bank of four machines on double point days, and that on Martin
Luther King Day (the previous double point day), those four machines generated almost 40% of the W2Gs in a casino
with 2600 machines.

               

                He knew
I played those machines a lot. On MLK Day itself, I was clever enough to be
dealt aces-with-a-kicker for $20,000 (I’m such a good player I held all five
cards!) I told him that if that particular hand was worrying him, I didn’t
think a 1-in-217K big hand should determine casino policy. On the day that one
of those hits, it’s no big surprise that the casino loses money --- but over
time those don’t hit very often. I was told the decision had been made and
there was no use arguing about it. He didn’t say who the decision-makers were,
but I assumed they were the slot director Cliff Paige, general manager Ryan
Growney, and Gaughan himself.

 

That makes next Wednesday
interesting, as I’m scheduled to teach Double Double Bonus (DDB) Quick Quads in
my free video poker class starting at noon in the Grand View Lounge --- a game
that will basically exist nowhere. There are some students who have a
theoretical interest in all things video poker, but most attend the class to
obtain information they can actually use to their benefit.

 

So I wrote an email to Paige,
Growney, and Gaughan suggesting they modify their decision. The game that most
of the pros play was DDB QQ, which returns 99.65%. Because of the high variance, that game generates LOTS
more W2Gs than Bonus Poker (BP) QQ (99.55%) even if they were played the same amount --- which they aren't. Double
Bonus (DB) QQ (also 99.55%) doesn’t get a lot of play. Triple Double Bonus
(TDB) QQ is a joke because it pays more playing five coins per line than six,
and it’s by far the lowest-returning game on the bank of machines.

 

If they’ve decided that DDB QQ has
to go, so be it. But why change the pay schedules on the other games? The two
best remaining games return the same amount as 9/6 Jacks or Better
(essentially) and the casino still has hundreds of those games. And for those
players who enjoy the game of Quick Quads (there are a lot of us who consider
it fun), there would still be some decent pay schedules.

 

I told them the difference between
the games on double point days was big (100.25% for DDB versus 100.15% for BP and
DB).  Giving up 40% of your edge is
pretty significant for a strong player. I also said that if they were worried
about me in particular, I’d stay away from Quick Quads and play other machines.

 

Plus, I told them, it gets me off
the hook next Wednesday. I can teach 8/5 BP QQ. I would still have the DDB QQ
class notes with me in case people wanted information about a game that wasn’t
going to be found anywhere, but the BP QQ class would be useful information
about a pretty decent game (99.55%).

 

Okay, I was told. For the next
several months they’ll just downgrade the DDB QQ and keep the other ones as is.
And they’ll monitor the situation. If they eventually think they have to
downgrade the other games as well, they will deal with that at that time.

 

So, this Wednesday’s class will be
BP QQ, and not DDB QQ. I’m posting that information where I can, including
mentioning it on the radio. The flyers already in the hands of people will
continue to say DDB, but I can’t do anything about that.

[Vman96]

That's unfortunate to hear. But there definitely were other ways for South Point to solve their issues with this. Ellis Island still offers 9/6 DDB w/QQ at lower stakes, with no point multipliers. Hoping to get a chance to play it next week!

[alpax]

Unfortunate news to hear about indeed.

Based on Mr. Gaughan's first guest appearance on Gambling With An Edge radio show, it sounded like he knew he was giving strong players the edge with the double points promotion on monthly holidays. It is remarkable that Mr. Gaughan was able to offer it for as long as he has until his right hand man or such informed him of the finances.

I do not know if the number of W2G that need to be paid out makes so much difference to the casino, I would say keeping the 9/6 DDB pay schedule for just the quarter denomination would suffice in reducing amount of the W2Gs. Even if the just the DDB pay schedule was affected, 10 players hammering $1 Super Double Bonus could represent one player playing the Quick Quads.

I am guessing the 10 play $1 9/6 Bonus Deluxe will be the next one that gets restricted or even the double point days in general might get restricted.

Boyd properties limits their 7x points days such as Presidents Day and Leap Year Day this month (slightly higher cashback than the SouthPoint double point days) at 10000 points (25000 at the Suncoast) on the fine print.

The best part about the SouthPoint one is there is no limit, but management will use their discretion to revoke Club membership (based on what I heard on that GWAE episode).

[BobDancer]

Limiting the DDB QQ game to quarters might have been a way to "save" them. I didn't think of that when I argued they should keep the pay schedules on other games. Maybe I should have passed my letter by Alpax before I submitted it!Mr. Gaughan has a philosophical aversion to restricting games. If he can't afford to offer full points and multipliers on a game, the game goes. Other casinos have different philosophies --- or rather, other casino managers have different philosophies. I've discussed this matter with him, but it became clear after a relatively few minutes that this was the way he ran casinos and he wasn't about to change unless he became REALLY convinced to change his ways. And that didn't happen very often.He will listen to suggested changes --- he kept the pay schedules on the other QQ games, for instance --- but usually he only listens to people he respects. Most of his senior employees have been with him for more than 10 years and he trusts them.

[olds442jetaway]

Hearing about those downgrades is a real bummer. Things like that tend to spread east over time. The casinos out here like to be copycats on both play and patron benefits. If the 99 plus games go in Ct., they will lose many more of the core vp players imo. They have already lost a bunch since 2011. The casinos also seem to be relying more on things like comedy and regular clubs and selling more drinks to the younger set. The younger set out here doesn't have the patience for the most part to sit down and gamble for hours on end. They find other ways to part with their money at the casino.

[DaBurglar]

Bob, I know it's chic to ignore my posts and questions, but could you please simply tell me if Michael Gaughan is in fact the son of the late Jackie Gaughan of "the Plaza" fame?Thanks.

[Vman96]

Bob, I know it's chic to ignore my posts and questions, but could you please simply tell me if Michael Gaughan is in fact the son of the late Jackie Gaughan of "the Plaza" fame?Thanks.



Wiki says yes. And Michael's son, Brendan, is in stock car racing.

[alpax]

Bob, I know it's chic to ignore my posts and questions, but could you please simply tell me if Michael Gaughan is in fact the son of the late Jackie Gaughan of "the Plaza" fame?Thanks.



The short answer is yes, but if you need a direct answer from Mr. Dancer, you can read this article

Bob Dancer Las Vegas Advisor Article 3-18-2014 - Good Bye, Jackie Gaughan

Hearing about those downgrades is a real bummer. Things like that tend to spread east over time. The casinos out here like to be copycats on both play and patron benefits. If the 99 plus games go in Ct., they will lose many more of the core vp players imo. They have already lost a bunch since 2011. The casinos also seem to be relying more on things like comedy and regular clubs and selling more drinks to the younger set. The younger set out here doesn't have the patience for the most part to sit down and gamble for hours on end. They find other ways to part with their money at the casino.

I think that is around the time they stopped awarding points to Momentum Card holders for the better playing games. I still think they have good value if they still award mailers.

Ellis Island still offers 9/6 DDB w/QQ at lower stakes, with no point multipliers. Hoping to get a chance to play it next week!

Good luck in Vegas! Going to do a live trip report this time on VMB?

[BobDancer]

Hearing about those downgrades is a real bummer. Things like that tend to spread east over time. The casinos out here like to be copycats on both play and patron benefits. If the 99 plus games go in Ct., they will lose many more of the core vp players imo. They have already lost a bunch since 2011. The casinos also seem to be relying more on things like comedy and regular clubs and selling more drinks to the younger set. The younger set out here doesn't have the patience for the most part to sit down and gamble for hours on end. They find other ways to part with their money at the casino. It's part of video poker life.Virtually no casino has the same video poker inventory that it did five years ago. Over time, most casinos tighten their games as the players get better.the smart players increase their skills and learn new games. And thrive.The not-so-smart players don't want to study (or perhaps don't have the ability to learn) so they sit around and complain about how things aren't what they used to be.Or they post how "impossible" it is to win!

[DaBurglar]

It's part of video poker life.Virtually no casino has the same video poker inventory that it did five years ago. Over time, most casinos tighten their games as the players get better.the smart players increase their skills and learn new games. And thrive.The not-so-smart players don't want to study (or perhaps don't have the ability to learn) so they sit around and complain about how things aren't what they used to be.Or they post how "impossible" it is to win! Wow......well I am glad to know I am one of the "SMART" players, if I accept this very straightforward and simple summation of the evolving scene of casino gambling, and the people who choose to still partake of it, in today's America, from Mr. B. Dancer......I've dumped and shifted a majority of my play from VP to live Poker (N/L Holdem, and I've started applying myself to Omaha, primarily pot limit)......I still play enough VP (or try to) so that I keep up with things, earn at least enough free rooms and food to make my Live Poker play more enjoyable and easy, and (if my luck ever changes) add an occasional windfall to my Poker Bankroll.But I wonder what would happen to true professionals like Bob and people in his "circle" if....IF....the public continued to act in the lazy, indolent manner he outlines and contends they do, where MORE and MORE people just either give up and/or cut way way back on gaming (which is inevitable if the trends we see continue where casinos offer less and less and people do not "adapt" as Bob describes); and then, casinos in turn continue to find it harder and harder (and HARDER) to eke out profits every quarter/every year......We have learned (the hard way in many instances) that when casinos are backed against the wall.they will slash and burn and cut just about anywhere & anything.    Witness the latest travesty taking place in Macau......   Seems to me the only reason a place (like South Point for instance) even tolerates players like Mr B. Dancer is they perceive he brings in far more business than he takes out.    Obviously then, it is in Bob's interests to have the rest of the Video Poker playing public as strong and balanced as possible, in order to keep them in the game as long as possible, in order to allow BOB to keep doing what he is doing, etc etc.    The video poker playing community at large is the HERD upon which the lions (the casinos) feed....BOB is the lone coyote (or Hyena if he truly runs in a pack of other "Advantage Gamblers") who uses the activity and chaos and "noise' generated by the struggle between the Lions and the HERD to camouflage (or distract from)  what he is actually doing.....Circle of life, yes?