Downgrade in Quick Quads machines at South Point

[Tedlark]

DaBurglar if South Point management did value Bob Dancer in much the manner you describe then they would listen to him and take to heart his suggestions to them.

[jetermacaw]

"The video poker playing community at large is the HERD upon which the lions (the casinos) feed."

With all due respect DB, I think the HERD on which the casinos feed are the penny slot players.

[olds442jetaway]

   DaBurglar if South Point management did value Bob Dancer in much the manner you describe then they would listen to him and take to heart his suggestions to them.

     I agree. I think most casinos fail to take into account the fact that most vp players have no idea how to play and make the proper holds. Just that alone with other stupid mistakes we all may make from time to time gives them an easy 5% return and that is the number they even use on their theoretical last time I checked. I guess they are not content with 5% and want the 8-15% they make on the slots. To me, it is crazy to drive away 5% profit knowing that those patrons will not knuckle under and play regular slot machines.

[BobDancer]

DaBurglar if South Point management did value Bob Dancer in much the manner you describe then they would listen to him and take to heart his suggestions to them.It's not that black and white.I do have lunch with Michael Gaughan, owner of the South Point, three or four times a year. We're friends. He's four or five years older than me, but the relationship is more like father-son than it is like one between contemporaries. (He has three sons and maybe one daughter. I am not NEARLY a family member to him, nor should I be.) He is MUCH, MUCH more financially successful than I am and in his world, that makes him the one to call the shots.He also, not completely kidding, considers me his enemy. He has a favorite expression that says "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer." He considers me a very knowledgeable "opponent."When he does something wrong to my way of thinking, I tell him so. My batting average on getting my suggestions implemented is maybe 333 --- meaning one in three of my suggestions are implemented at least in some fashion. But he's been running casinos for 40 years, successfully --- and grew up in the business as his father ran casinos in Vegas and in Omaha prior to that --- and he definitely has his own ideas and there are some lines he won't cross. Over time I've learned some the location of those lines. I don't cross them, and I don't discuss them with others. Early on in our relationship (perhaps six years ago) he asked me to evaluate a couple of players as to whether they were "too good." I declined. "I am a player and have to live with other players. The last thing I want to be known as is a casino stool pigeon." He hasn't asked again. Some players think I "must" be a stool pigeon --- that's the only way the relationship makes sense for them I suppose --- but those are public guesses by uninformed people. (We have some of those on this site.)The South Point does periodically purge players for being too good. Personally I hate that and have told him so. I prefer other solutions --- but that's the one they use there. Dozens of players, some of them arguably better players than me, have asked me to use my influence to get them back in. I almost always decline --- although I did do it once for a player who I knew was not that good and had just gotten lucky. Unsuccessfully.There is no doubt in my mind that if Michael Gaughan decided I played angles with him, or somehow wasn't worthy of his friendship, I would be the next guy out the door. Permanently. It would be done politely and without security guards being involved, but it would be done. I truly hope it never comes to that.I am not a traditional consultant, although the fact that I get to play there, participate in the promotions, get paid to teach my classes, and have the South Point as the primary sponsor of my radio show is definitely a type of compensation. So calling me a consultant there wouldn't be totally incorrect either.A consultant's job is to make suggestions that he thinks are valuable. A casino manager's job is to run the casino. These are not the same job. If a casino manager took every one of a consultant's suggestions, there would be no need for that manager. If that were true, you should just let the consultant take over the manager's job!(This "non-consultant" doesn't want a job. I'm much too busy to have time for a job! And at 68 years of age --- for two more days! ---  I much prefer to do things "my way" than to submit to being an underling.)Finally, the things I tell Michael Gaughan are often about upcoming promotions. If I want to add certain pay schedules or games he tells me "talk to Cliff Paige," who is the slot director there and has worked for Gaughan for more than 20 years (specifically at the Gold Coast prior to opening the South Coast --- which later became South Point.) My batting average with Paige isn't as high as it is with Gaughan --- but at least I can always get an audience and sometimes I am successful.I'm sometimes asked that if I have Gaughan's ear, why don't I tell him to put in $5 Full Pay Deuces Wild (100.76%) and looser games all over the place? The answer is that I accept that the South Point is a for-profit business. Any consultant who regularly made suggestions that would cause a casino to hemorrhage money would not be a consultant very long.And any consultant who tells a casino to put in a certain mix of games and then goes out and hammers those same games wouldn't last too long either. So I don't do that. Hopefully I'm always smart to realize how stupid that would be.  

[Tedlark]

And if a casino manager were able to make the same suggestions that a consultant would - there would be no need for a consultant either.

I agree Bob: it's not that black and white.

[DaBurglar]

"The video poker playing community at large is the HERD upon which the lions (the casinos) feed."

With all due respect DB, I think the HERD on which the casinos feed are the penny slot players.


Sure, they are part of their "diet" lol      Lions eat Zebras, Gazelle, Wildebeast, the occasional giraffe, and even their own young (case in point CET properties shutting down Showboat-AC even though it was profitable)......Why do I get the feeling I should be in a Mutual Of Omaha's Wild Kingdom Video? Anyone remember Marlon Perkins?    Growing up I actually loved that show......

[DaBurglar]

 
It's not that black and white.I do have lunch with Michael Gaughan ............................<STUFF ABOUT BOB BEING A CONSULTING "NON-CONSULTANT", OR SOME DEAL.........>...........................................................................So I don't do that. Hopefully I'm always smart to realize how stupid that would be.  Well you befuddled the hell out of me, but I guess that was your intention.....Anyhow, I THANK YOU BOB for "sharing" about as much concerning yourself and your "mysteriously nebulous, or nebulously mysterious"  way of doing business or practicing your profession....As I said a long time ago, Bob let slip a tidbit about himself whereby he said there were certain aspects, practices and "secrets" about what he actually does and how he does it that he absolutely does not share with anyone else.     If you read what he posts above, and then (try) to read between the lines, you will NOT be able to peg down anything.......but there are some tidbits which jump out (like the fact that Mr Gaughan does indeed nix players who are "too good" and yet BOB obviously is NOT such a player, and yet again, Bob is "paid" by south point to teach, so OBVIOUSLY, Mr Gaughan does, to some extent, regard Bob and what he does as integral to running a profitable casino.....)I know, and have known in my years, a number of "pros" like Bob.....different games, different personalities, different priorities ALL......but one thing in common they all have:   A tendency to obfuscate and never quite reveal "everything" about themselves and what they do and how they do it.     And its obvious as to why......to do what they do, in the industry they do it, requires always keeping or retaining at least one piece of the puzzle that no one else knows about.     Gambling as both an "industry" and as a "profession" still carries with it certain baggage, stigma, questions regarding legitimacy & morality, and pitfalls galore, and it is one of those businesses where a person can spend 40-50 years existing and holding court and building and maintaining relationships, and have it all end or taken away in a matter of days if they are not extremely disciplined and careful.....

[olds442jetaway]

     I think players that are just too good have a bit of a 6th sense that works from time to time. The best a player can do is stay about even with the best paytables over time. There has to be something else. Call it luck if you want. I prefer to think that one's brain for some people can sense when a machine is going to change for the better even if that is in the short run. There are even patterns in chaos and in the RNGs. Mastering them requires more than just playing perfectly there is something else involved that one cannot fully explain. Edited to add....when I was younger, I was able to move with my mind a small toy car across the table just about a quarter of an inch. I could make a pen or pencil turn a quarter turn on a completely smooth surface also. That gift was lost by the time I was 14. My mom and I shared the ability to read each other's minds from time to time. No it was not just intuition. I lost my mom after a very very long illness just recently. There is still somewhat of a connection that I cannot explain. A salmon returning home to its birthplace is also something man cannot fully understand. I think a lot of it has to do with magnetic fields. Perhaps our brains do somewhat the same thing for some people and interact once in awhile with the chips in the machines. Who knows. I don't pretend to, but some players can and do beat the paytables over and above their stated percentage in the long term as well as a short run.
     Edited to add one more thing and the only one who can verify this is my Mrs. When we are on our way up to play vp together, sometimes I can tell in advance which premium hands I will be hitting that evening. If I don't have that feeling, I just don't say anything. So far this year I have been able to predict on the same evening the following. Both recent Royals, the fact that they will be close together, hitting 5 aces multiple times on DBDW, and AWAK. Unfortunately, I can sometimes sense in advance the nights of play that will be a complete bummer. I never tell her those since I don't want to appear to be negative. I also never act on these feelings as to my betting denomination or type of play because knowing these things is supposed to be impossible. The only other thing that my sister who I only see when she visits can verify is over the years, I would tell her that I would be hitting a Royal within a day or two of my birthday. That happened 8 years in a row. Finally, and I think I posted about this before, almost all Royals I have ever hit have been preceded on job by a straight flush in the same session and on the same machine. If anyone posts that all of the above in crazy and nonsense that is OK. I fully understand.

[alpax]

Very sorry to hear about your mother olds, hope the suffering is no more in the better place she is in. More fortunate than many to have such a lengthy longevity. I enjoyed the other stories surrounding it though.

Thanks Mr. Dancer for being open about your relations with Mr. Gaughan and the Southpoint Casino. It is more business like relationship than a friendship than I thought it was, but I cannot be surprised. At least it will clear up some of the accusations made about you that you work for the casinos.

I did hear about Mr. Gaughan's strategy of offering over ten thousand video poker games with a payback better than 99%, banking that the players will not practice or study enough to achieve the return. First time hearing about strong players getting purged as opposed to the players who only participate on double point days. I suppose strong players who play towards a game's max EV will have to be nomadic after hearing about Boyd and Stations purging players as well.

[BobDancer]

      The best a player can do is stay about even with the best paytables over time.     I strongly disagree with your premise. The best players come out ahead year after year.The explanation for this is not in the paranormal realm. It is in the realm of smart people studying hard tend to succeed in whatever they do. It has absolutely nothing to do with knowing which hand is coming or which machine is going to be hot today. The long term return on a game can be calculated. The optimal strategy can be determined using available tools. One caveat is that in order to win you never play a game where the house has the advantage. Then it is simply a matter of having the bankroll to survive the swings and execute the strategy accurately. It's not rocket science.