Unusual hold in Airport Deuces

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]You need to ignore the posters here who make strategy
modifications or claim they do not care whether they win or lose. If they want
to claim “I’m a recreational player and I can do what I damn well please,” they
are correct! They can! But they do not provide an example worth emulating. And
if you follow them, you’ll get worse, not better.[/quote]I agree 101% with everything Bob Dancer says in reference to high stakes professional video poker play.  Our main disagreement is that he consistently misinterprets the motives of purely recreational players. This is understandable given his profession and the fact that he gets paid to tell players how to win, not have more fun.  In the high limit room even a tiny decision can have real ramifications.  For a small denomination recreational player, not so much.Keeping the hand in question may make you a few dollars of profit over years of play. If you throw away all five cards and hit a quad deuce or a royal, you are money ahead for a long time. If hitting a jackpot "today" is more important to you than accumulating money a few pennies at a time, I would throw away all the cards.  

[BobDancer]

I agree 101% with everything Bob Dancer says in reference to high stakes professional video poker play.  Our main disagreement is that he consistently misinterprets the motives of purely recreational players.    












[/QUOTE]I do not think I misunderstand or misquote you.My comment was to OLDS, who says he wishes to become a much stronger player. For him to do that, he needs to disregard the advice from you and the other recreational players out there. Your recommendations are poisonous to players serious about winning.If you wish to remain a recreational player, continue to do what you're doing. I have no problem with that. My advice was to somebody who says he wishes to break out of that.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]Your recommendations are poisonous to players serious about winning.[/quote]Just because a recreational player does not play exactly according to the math doesn't mean he/she is poisoned, unintelligent, undisciplined, unskilled or is flawed in any other way. Informed and well funded recreational players often make small adjustments to "computer perfect hand strategy" based on their own personal goals and experiences. As a recreational player it is more enjoyable for me to go for a jackpot than accumulate a few cents of return.  At $1.25 a hand, the choice is between 2-3 cents or possibly $250 or $1,000.  If I draw anything higher than a straight flush, I'm going to feel pretty stupid about winning a few cents. Knowing the "why" of the math is beneficial. How you apply the knowledge is up to the individual and their particular goals for the game.  Most recreational players are playing for the thrill of a jackpot and going home with money in their pockets on that particular day not the accumulated results of math over years at a time.  Using a 100% math based VP strategy is right according to the math, but it may not be always the right choice for you.

[olds442jetaway]

I agree with both Bob and Phil but in different areas. Still being a recreational player who like most hopes to have their strategy in order as well, doesn't prevent me from taking a shot once in awhile on a hold that will cost me a few cents. I guarantee that over the course of the session, those " mistakes " cost me a lot less that I spend on tips with the waitresses. That said, I think one should strive overall to play it close to the vest most of the time and not to make too many wacky plays in the course of a session or make major mistakes over and over because you just don't know any better. If Bob's software let me choose a bet of more than 5 coins say up to 25 like the casino, I would be one of the first to buy it. Unlike most players, I like to vary my bets up and down. I know that with perfect strategy, long term that part won't matter, it is just how I like to play. Picking the best paytable, knowing your strategy rules down cold, and keeping to that most of the time is still me way of playing and as a rec player, health, fun, and winning if possible are my goals in that order. I do appreciate feedback and advice from all on this forum and don't automatically dismiss anyone up front. That said, there are some long rants here and there probably including mine that I could do without.

[Vman96]

I wonder how many times I've missed this play playing Airport/NSUD in the casino. Only time I typically have kept my eyes peeled for 2 card straight flushes is AC Joker Poker. That game has some nasty strategy.

[BobDancer]

[QUOTE=olds442jetaway If Bob's software let me choose a bet of more than 5 coins say up to 25 like the casino, I would be one of the first to buy it. [/QUOTE]Assuming you are getting 800-for-1 for the royal for all bets between 6 and 25 coins, the strategy doesn't change and that feature on the software wouldn't serve any purpose. Under these conditions, you'd get the same error messages practicing at 17 coins as you would at 5 coins.

[BobDancer]

Just because a recreational player does not play exactly according to the math doesn't mean he/she is poisoned, unintelligent, undisciplined, unskilled or is flawed in any other way.


















I never said you were poison. I said following your advice would be poisonous to players to players trying to learn correct strategy. And that is undeniable. All deviations from computer strategy are leaks in the game of somebody attempting to learn correct strategy.You keep responding saying that since you're a recreational player, you can make up your own rules on what is acceptable strategy. I don't dispute that. You are welcome to spend your money any way you like. The only point I'm making is that if somebody wishes to break out of the recreational strategy rut, which OLDS has said he does, your postings are very dangerous to follow. If others want to follow your advice, that's their problem. Keep in mind that you claim to be wealthy, don't care whether you win or lose, and feel free to deviate from mathematical rules any damn time you please. Somebody following you who is not wealthy. or who does care about whether they win or lose, or is attempting to learn the correct way will find you a dangerous advice-giver. 

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]Somebody following you who is not wealthy. or who
does care about whether they win or lose, or is attempting to learn the
correct way will find you a dangerous advice-giver.[/quote]I think this is a fair statement. I do think the word "dangerous" is over the top and is typical Bob Dancer hyperbole. Making a 2-3 cent change in strategy for a chance at a jackpot is far from a dangerous activity. How someone plays video poker is not all that important to most people.  You chose to make video poker your life's work, I chose to make in my recreation.  That's the only real difference between our strategies.  

[BobDancer]

   How someone plays video poker is not all that important to most people.  You chose to make video poker your life's work, I chose to make in my recreation.  That's the only real difference between our strategies.   Intentional or not, you seem unable to grasp my point. I am absolutely not criticizing the way you play. You may do as you wish.What I do continue to say is that following your advice is very dangerous FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO LEARN TO PLAY PERFECTLY. For players who don't fit into this category, my advice doesn't apply.The word "dangerous" is not hyperbole at all. If anything, it's an understatement. For a winning player, every "leak" in the game costs EV. Every "hunch" played costs EV. Every refusal to play correct strategy because a player doesn't like the play costs EV. And over time EV adds up. For everybody --- including recreational players. If you're claiming that your CS strategy (where you play one coin until "the time is right" based on the return of your previous hand and then you jump up to play max coin, and sometimes max coin at a  higher denomination) only costs 2-3 cents, you're badly mistaken. Some people believe you. Some people here have even added a Martingale progression on top of your CS. Which is worse!Periodically you admit that your system is not mathematically sound. Periodically you claim to have given up that system, only to report you've gone back to it not so long afterwards. So not only is your system bad, so's your discipline! That's another reason people should not look to you as someone to learn from.You have 9/6 Jacks near where you live and you ignore a 99.54% game and insist on playing games for much lower pay schedules. It's fine with me if you spend your money that way. But it's very expensive for others to follow in your footsteps. If you think that's only 2-3 cents, again you're badly mistaken.You claim you've held a suited AK, AQ, AJ, or AT in Deuces Wild and hit max-coin royals three times --- for higher stakes than you say you usually play.  You only get such hands (with no other better draws) about one time in 40 and only connect one time in 16,215. The average expected number of hands to collect three times is about 1.5 million hands. For someone who plays recreationally. For someone who plays only a portion of his hands at max coins. For someone who normally doesn't play for the stakes he claims he scored with. To me that adds up to "unbelievable."And this is the same guy who magically gets more sets of deuces when he increases his stakes. Nobody else seems to be able to duplicate your feats. And it's very expensive to try to do so. Far more expensive than a few pennies.Some people here might actually believe your claims. Some people might believe that the "evidence" that you've been successful at this makes it somehow more likely they'll be successful too. (which is nonsense.) This is far more dangerous than a few pennies at a time.And, one more time, I don't begrudge you your methods. You may do what you like. I absolutely am not suggesting you change your ways. You don't even have to tell the truth about your results. My warnings go out to others here who wish to learn to play with better results. And if they do, they should definitely ignore any advice you give them.If they don't care whether they win or lose (which is what you claim and I for one don't believe that about you --- I think you care enough about that that you exaggerate your successes), then they can read your ideas with impunity.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]My warnings go out to others here who wish to learn to
play with better results. And if they do, they should definitely ignore
any advice you give them.[/quote]Let's straighten this out once and for all.  First, I do not claim to be a gambling expert of any sort and am not promoting any strategy.  I am not giving video poker advice on this forum or anywhere else.  I am only stating how I feel, how I play and what happens on the machines when I play.  I personally enjoy going to a casino for the pure enjoyment of the experience itself.  I played the Dancer Strategy exclusively for nearly five years and all it got me was huge loses.  Maybe it's because of my lack of intelligence, skill, discipline or whatever, but it just didn't work for me.  It wasn't until I stopped chasing royals and started paying attention to my loses and managing my money better that I started to win with any consistency.Second, I am not promoting CS to the masses.  I always said it was a way to play negative games longer with the same money.  I also said I don't play CS on games with odds over 98%.  I personally believe when the odds get much lower than that number, it's better to limit your loses than wait for the math to take all your money.Thirdly, I play video poker strictly as a hobby and recreation.  I had a great career, employed a bunch of folks that bought homes, cars and had children and families along the way.  I feel good about my life and my contribution to society.  If I want to play around with slot machines in my old age, I think I earned it.  I don't care if I win or lose, but I do care when my loses exceed my personal comfort level.Lastly, I enjoy this forum even when some people don't agree with me.  This would be a pretty boring place to hang out if all we did was verify one person's thoughts all day.   I appreciate your input, respect your comments and generally think you are a swell guy.  If you feel like you have to reply every time I post my disagreement with you that's fine, but it won't stop me from expressing my opinions.