Not one AWAK in 125,000 hands and counting

[Vman96]

[QUOTE=wildman49] Here is my report on 4 card holds getting the same throw away card back in another suit.I am very VERY shocked by my findings and need a big helping of humble pie.I played JOB 5 nickels a hand. I was going to play it out to 100 holds as Fa La La La La.... La la la la and Webman did but when I got to hand 50 of the 4 holds I throw up the white flag as it only happened  3 times in 50 hands. 

you reported your findings accurately, you deserve a lot of credit for that, bravo. does not happen often enough.[/QUOTE]

Well, I understand why people THINK it happens more often. It is a more noticeable miss than a brick of a different rank.

And I am sorry I was snippy in my response wildman, I was annoyed at what asteroid wrote earlier in this thread even more (basically claiming you haven't played enough VP if you don't believe it), and it sorta came out my last response's tone. One can argue they may increase those type of misses from the expected 3/47 to mess with people's heads (but of course that would be breaking most laws, and if they are doing that, they should be rigging a lot more than just that outcome), but 50% is really, really high, even if they were rigging it. Because if the casino is cheating, I would hope they would rather not get caught!

I am glad to hear what you experienced in Arizona was within expectation. Because I feel like we don't hear enough of that on here. But I guess "within expectation" stories are more boring I suppose...

[notes1]

Vman, your clarification deserves a thumbs up.

[DaBurglar]

     Because if the casino is cheating, I would hope they would rather not get caught! This has been a GREAT, awesome thread so far!!   Very good discussion and back & forth about a topic that I myself (obviously) have had a lot to say.....Hey VMAN ,  by now you should now how I feel about Video Poker machines in many Atlantic City Casinos, and the POSSIBILITY that, at certain times, the games are NOT what we seasoned VP players expect or believe them to be, operationally speaking.     And  BY NOW, I hope you realize how much I respect, and ENJOY, you and your reports and posts etc.   You are one of the better, if not the BEST, posters here, and I have no doubt that MANY others here feel the same way!!Before my main question/point is revealed, I want to re-emphasize & reiterate some of my general points & beliefs:   I believe, in my own personal experience, observation and research that it is Atlantic City (and NEW JERSEY) Gaming regs and rules that are the issue here, that how they are enforced (if & WHEN, how and BY WHOM they are enforced) is the issue.....When you make statements like the one you did above that I highlighted, what exactly are you thinking or basing it upon?    Do you, or are you, aware of what is (and has been) happening in AC, and what is the current situation with the so-called Division of Gaming Enforcement in New Jersey??   This is the crux, the heart, of my theory/gripe:    Casinos in AC (some of them, some of the time, with SOME of their Video Poker machines) have been, and continue to, operate some machines outside of accepted paramters and expectations, because there really is no danger of being......."C A U G H T" !!    The one-and-done poster called "Asteroid" reiterated some of the more basic and obvious elements of my own past posts, regarding IF the gaming regulators were to do their job, and IF they actually found MAJOR, significant evidence of cheating and wrongdoing (etc.), this would mean FEWER casinos in AC and a huge drop in the remaining ones as people leave, thus causing the regulatory agencies to LOSE their jobs .... an INHERENT and OBVIOUS  conflict of interest!!!!!       But there is more:   The Regulatory agencies have already been drastically downsized since Early 2011;   the few remaining resources in the NJ Gaming/Casino Authority are focused on issues that are unrelated to auditing video poker games/machines!  Some of these issues are (1) Underage Drinking & Gambling, which puts the entire STATE at risk of litigation should some teenager kill themself or others as a result of booze served in a AC casino ;    (2) Money Laundering, especially with the twin issues of Terrorism and DRUG DEALING being such HUGE and ongoing topics of concern and casinos being such easy accessible avenues for laundering;   (3)  Identity and Credit Card Fraud, which is such an ever-increasing and easy form of theft in industries LIKE casinos & resorts.....I myself have been inconvenienced several times in the last year or so by Credit Card fraud and issues that I strongly believe originated with my (legit) activity in Atlantic City, and just about everyone else I know (family, friends etc.)  who also frequent AC have had some type of trouble in this area!      Given how prevalent & frequent credit card info, as well as ALL OTHER forms of PERSONAL, PRIVATE  information is used and distributed throughout a place like AC and the many avenues of business typical of a Vacation/resort destination, this is obviously a major area of concern and worthy of regulatory oversight and enforcement!You get the point(s), I am sure.......so what do you honestly think is the level of priority in AC for checking video poker and what would be done if.....IF some clear violation were discovered?    

[ko king]

[QUOTE=Vman96]    Â Because if the casino is cheating, I would hope they would rather not get caught! This has been a GREAT, awesome thread so far!!   Very good discussion and back & forth about a topic that I myself (obviously) have had a lot to say.....Hey VMAN ,  by now you should now how I feel about Video Poker machines in many Atlantic City Casinos, and the POSSIBILITY that, at certain times, the games are NOT what we seasoned VP players expect or believe them to be, operationally speaking.     And  BY NOW, I hope you realize how much I respect, and ENJOY, you and your reports and posts etc.   You are one of the better, if not the BEST, posters here, and I have no doubt that MANY others here feel the same way!!Before my main question/point is revealed, I want to re-emphasize & reiterate some of my general points & beliefs:   I believe, in my own personal experience, observation and research that it is Atlantic City (and NEW JERSEY) Gaming regs and rules that are the issue here, that how they are enforced (if & WHEN, how and BY WHOM they are enforced) is the issue.....When you make statements like the one you did above that I highlighted, what exactly are you thinking or basing it upon?    Do you, or are you, aware of what is (and has been) happening in AC, and what is the current situation with the so-called Division of Gaming Enforcement in New Jersey??   This is the crux, the heart, of my theory/gripe:    Casinos in AC (some of them, some of the time, with SOME of their Video Poker machines) have been, and continue to, operate some machines outside of accepted paramters and expectations, because there really is no danger of being......."C A U G H T" !!    The one-and-done poster called "Asteroid" reiterated some of the more basic and obvious elements of my own past posts, regarding IF the gaming regulators were to do their job, and IF they actually found MAJOR, significant evidence of cheating and wrongdoing (etc.), this would mean FEWER casinos in AC and a huge drop in the remaining ones as people leave, thus causing the regulatory agencies to LOSE their jobs .... an INHERENT and OBVIOUS  conflict of interest!!!!!      Â But there is more:   The Regulatory agencies have already been drastically downsized since Early 2011;   the few remaining resources in the NJ Gaming/Casino Authority are focused on issues that are unrelated to auditing video poker games/machines!  Some of these issues are (1) Underage Drinking & Gambling, which puts the entire STATE at risk of litigation should some teenager kill themself or others as a result of booze served in a AC casino ;    (2) Money Laundering, especially with the twin issues of Terrorism and DRUG DEALING being such HUGE and ongoing topics of concern and casinos being such easy accessible avenues for laundering;   (3)  Identity and Credit Card Fraud, which is such an ever-increasing and easy form of theft in industries LIKE casinos & resorts.....I myself have been inconvenienced several times in the last year or so by Credit Card fraud and issues that I strongly believe originated with my (legit) activity in Atlantic City, and just about everyone else I know (family, friends etc.)  who also frequent AC have had some type of trouble in this area!      Given how prevalent & frequent credit card info, as well as ALL OTHER forms of PERSONAL, PRIVATE  information is used and distributed throughout a place like AC and the many avenues of business typical of a Vacation/resort destination, this is obviously a major area of concern and worthy of regulatory oversight and enforcement!You get the point(s), I am sure.......so what do you honestly think is the level of priority in AC for checking video poker and what would be done if.....IF some clear violation were discovered?     



[/QUOTE]

In this area I don't think the regulatory body was very big to begin with, I've only seen a few agents in my 25 years of playing this area. In this area I have never, I repeat never seen any vp machines that were shut down or being checked with the exception of 1 very out of the way casino. I went by the casino to play vp and every machine in the casino was closed down with a note that said the machines should be back up and running in 7 days. I didn't go back to that casino for about a month but when I did the machines were back up and running. I didn't notice any change in the machines but I did have a problem with 1 of the machines and a machine tech came out to try and fix it while a sat by and watched him. I ask the tech why all the vp were closed a few weeks back and he said they were being checked, he also said he casino from what he ws told received some very healthy fines for reasons unknown to him and the casino had a new head of gaming. To this day I can't find anyone who has a clue what they were fined for other that one employee who said they thought it may have been because of underage players or machines that didn't function properly. I highly doubt it was because of machines not functioning properly because the casino still has some machines up and running that have horrible button issues and graphics that can barely be seen, they even have one machine that has a deal button that sticks and it will deal a hand and before you can hold the cards you choose the machine will throw out 5 new cards. I'm of the opinion that even if the regulators did check and found issues casino patrons would never know because it could cause more harm to an already suffering gaming industry in this area. I also don't think any casino would outright cheat or tamper with any RNG, I think every program that is running has been pre-approved and still intact. Where I get a little concerned is what may have been approved when the gaming industry here took a nosedive and hasn't recovered to this date.
           The following comment/comments are nothing more than my opinion but are based on actual events that took place. The casino industry in this area took 2 huge hits, one hit was due to the economy and the other came from mother nature, both of those factors caused casino revenues and player attendance to drop dramatically. All of the casinos took steps to try and maintain a profit margin, slot machines were adjusted to increase the take and comps were cut. Those two measures taken had a very negative effect on players and the profit margins and attendance fell even further. The next step was 1,000's of casino employees lost their jobs, this measure also had a negative effect on player attitudes as casino service suffered, it was no surprise that player attendance and profits still didn't improve. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that if you increase casino take on slots, cut back on comps, lay off employees and cut everything you can things are not going to get better, things got worse of course, much worse. The next phase of the crumbling of the gaming industry was a huge blow, more employees laid off and the closing of the biggest and best casino in this area. The rumor was that even more casinos would going to shut down, thus far it hasn't happened but the casinos are still struggling and scrambling for players and dollars. My thoughts are that they had to find a way to take maximum advantage of every dollar that passed thru every machine or the situation would get even worse. I'm guessing that the possibility of looking the other way or allowing some exceptions to the rules could have taken place, once again, I'm just guessing and expressing my thoughts and opinions. In any case I truly don't believe that if a casino was really caught cheating any of us would have a clue because that wouldn't be something they would want the public to know. The industry if far to fragile now.

[DaBurglar]

Thanks Ko king, your post was an effective conveyance of your own experience and opinion.I would be interested to get a few more details about the incident with the shut down of the machines for 7 days.......where, when, which casino etc.     What else can you share that you have not?   Still, what you did share supports and agrees with a lot of what I have learned, and seen, and heard etc over the years.     AC is very VERY different from Vegas and Nevada in general (Reno is perhaps the better comparison to Atlantic City, or I should say the AC of 2007 before the place started to implode and fall apart......The similarities in SIZE and number of MAJOR casino resorts between Reno and AC-2007 is a lot closer than comparing Vegas to AC)      Part of my problem, or issue(s), with AC stems from the Prejudice I brought with me when I first started frequenting AC in 2009, when the place was well on its way to deteriorating and arriving at the point it is at now.I have already detailed how I spent a lot of time, both my own and for work, in LAs Vegas from 1992 through 2007.....I was able to learn and experience the Casino Industry from several perspectives, as a customer, a vendor/supplier and as a consultant (albeit for only about 18 months in this LAST capacity).    I saw and experienced and followed Vegas through the entire amazing dynamic explosive period that was 1992 through 2007, when one after another of the huge bigger-and-better-than-the-last  Mega resorts came online, and as the surrounding & supporting businesses and city grew with it.....This was my point of reference when it came to looking at, judging and evaluating any and all casinos (and the experiences and product that they offered) henceforth!   Needless to say, when I moved back home in late 2007, and then subsequently first visited Atlantic City in February 2009, I was in for a RUDE awakening, and disappointment, when I experienced the place for the first time!I could not believe much of what I saw and heard as I frequented AC casinos during the first 6 months or so after my initial visit.....the type and level of Service in AC compared to Nevada Casinos was shocking, and the gambling as well, how comps were distributed,  how guests & players were treated by hosts, it was all a let down and disappointing.    Obviously, the state of New jersey and the State of Nevada had two different approaches, philosophies, and attitudes to Gambling and the patrons who made it run, and they CLEARLY have two different sets of PRIORITIES (and Values) when it comes to regulating and maintaining the "industry" that exists within their statelines.     Our discussion about  VIDEO POKER and these issues of fairness/reliability/transparency is reflective of these differences!Your comment that it is not likely the actual RNG in each machine is any way altered or tampered with is OBVIOUS.....the simple component that generates the random numbers is inviolate, impossible to mess with without totally screwing up the rest of the game and without being totally OBVIOUS too!   Besides, the RNG is NOT the component that a casino needs to concern itself with if it wants to alter, or "modify" the end results anyway.....if it wants to impact the return% that a Video Poker game yields in ways OTHER than simply modifying the Paytable, it needs to access the actual PROGRAMMING that makes each video poker game work.....and how that is done is really the issue, or subject we need to focus upon, because in reality, if a Regulatory body like the NJ gaming commish is to truly do any type of "AUDITING" or "CHECKING" of video poker machines, this is what it would be checking.  Again, the actual chip or RNG is sealed and a simple glance is all one needs to see if it is intact.   No, the thing an auditor would be looking for (and AT) is the actual program "SETTINGS" for each video poker game.....<Simplified ILLUSTRATION for discussion purposes>(1)RNG generates CONSTANT STREAM of Random numbers, millions & millions of them throughout the day;      (2) Video Poker Game PROGRAM takes those Randomly generated results and "processes" them into actual GAME results utilizing established computer program "code" for the video poker game selected by the player;(3) The Video Poker Game Program then displays said results in a familiar enduser format (i.e. the cards we see on the screen!) and calculates what, if any, value those results yield to the player;(4) this "cycle" repeats itself over and over, indefinitely, until the casino removes or replaces the machine<end simplified Illustration>Having never actually seen these Program Settings, or CODE, myself, only heard of them second hand, I cannot speak to what they look like or what an auditor would specifically see, or any of that, but I can deduce what type of info, displays and things a auditor would be checking IF he/she/it were actually "Auditing" a specific video poker game/machine:    They would be looking to see WHAT settings are in place that the enduser (Casino in this case) has set up....it is Highly unlikely an auditor visiting a casino and auditing a machine is going to be looking at the actual CODE, line by line.   Nope, rather they would be looking to see if the casino has done something like set the frequency of NON PAYING hands (i.e. DUDS) to occur at a rate or frequency higher (or lower) than the expected NORM/Average for a 52 card deck (or 53 or 54 depending on the game.)     That's the simplest most straightforward way I can think of describing what I MYSELF have deduced and believe currently takes place.   I am sure everyone else has a different conception and opinion/belief set on what actually happens during the casino game/video poker  OVERSIGHT & Auditing process.I asked a long time ago for Bob Dancer to share what he knows about this, about this process and what actually happens, but alas he is not interested in sharing what he knows it seems.    SOMEONE out there KNOWS the process, KNOWS what gets checked, what it looks like, etc.    We KNOW the Nevada Gaming Commission is a dynamic, vigilant and vibrant organization that takes its job dead serious.....What is involved in the par tof their job that involves oversight and auditing video poker???? That is REALLY all we want to KNOW!!!   Screw our perception, or "OPINIONS"....what is the reality?   SOMEONE KNOWS, and I always figured if anyone knew it would be BOB.But Ko King raised several important points that I too have in the past brought out and which need continued consideration:    In the past, back when AC had all those "IN HOUSE" booths for the New Jersey Gaming Commission, and there were agents and staff in house 24/7, from the time casinos first appeared in the late 1970s  up through 2011 when Gov Christie and his supporters in the legislature decided to massively deregulate the state's casino industry, what CHANGED to make casino gaming so  resistant to the NEED for regulation and oversight???    Why did the casinos and all related to them and in them  NEED to be closely watched for 33 years, and then POOF, all of a sudden in 2011 they no longer needed that?

[asteroid]

This fragility is the very reason that skill-based gaming is going to start hitting the floor. The current crop of games is not appealing to players in general (IMHO). By making games that are more like live poker or sports-betting, where the casino takes a vig and then delivers a non-rigged gaming experience, players may start to return to the casinos since players are now competing against one another rather than the casino. Right now the casinos have no choice with the non-vig games like VP - either "tweak" the RNGs or go under.Of course the cover story is that they want to appeal to millennials with skill-based gaming, and to a small extent this is true, but mainly they want to introduce vig-based gaming since tweaking the RNGs is clearly alienating players like us. Actually I would be happy to pay a 5 dollar vig to be guaranteed a fair game of VP where each of the N cards (52 for non-wild card games or non-joker wild card games and >52 for joker games) has an equal probability of occurring (i.e. uniform pdf) on every hand. I mean, it's not much fun when you are playing 50-hand deuces wild for several hours with the express purpose of accessing the ducks and natural RFs in a much shorter time frame than single-line play, and then receiving no NRFs and maybe one or two ducks.Anyway, from a legal perspective, the casinos have found what they feel is a legally defensible way of interpreting the word "random", so really their only worry is that of economics.
[/QUOTE]

In this area I don't think the regulatory body was very big to begin with, I've only seen a few agents in my 25 years of playing this area. In this area I have never, I repeat never seen any vp machines that were shut down or being checked with the exception of 1 very out of the way casino. I went by the casino to play vp and every machine in the casino was closed down with a note that said the machines should be back up and running in 7 days. I didn't go back to that casino for about a month but when I did the machines were back up and running. I didn't notice any change in the machines but I did have a problem with 1 of the machines and a machine tech came out to try and fix it while a sat by and watched him. I ask the tech why all the vp were closed a few weeks back and he said they were being checked, he also said he casino from what he ws told received some very healthy fines for reasons unknown to him and the casino had a new head of gaming. To this day I can't find anyone who has a clue what they were fined for other that one employee who said they thought it may have been because of underage players or machines that didn't function properly. I highly doubt it was because of machines not functioning properly because the casino still has some machines up and running that have horrible button issues and graphics that can barely be seen, they even have one machine that has a deal button that sticks and it will deal a hand and before you can hold the cards you choose the machine will throw out 5 new cards. I'm of the opinion that even if the regulators did check and found issues casino patrons would never know because it could cause more harm to an already suffering gaming industry in this area. I also don't think any casino would outright cheat or tamper with any RNG, I think every program that is running has been pre-approved and still intact. Where I get a little concerned is what may have been approved when the gaming industry here took a nosedive and hasn't recovered to this date.
           The following comment/comments are nothing more than my opinion but are based on actual events that took place. The casino industry in this area took 2 huge hits, one hit was due to the economy and the other came from mother nature, both of those factors caused casino revenues and player attendance to drop dramatically. All of the casinos took steps to try and maintain a profit margin, slot machines were adjusted to increase the take and comps were cut. Those two measures taken had a very negative effect on players and the profit margins and attendance fell even further. The next step was 1,000's of casino employees lost their jobs, this measure also had a negative effect on player attitudes as casino service suffered, it was no surprise that player attendance and profits still didn't improve. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that if you increase casino take on slots, cut back on comps, lay off employees and cut everything you can things are not going to get better, things got worse of course, much worse. The next phase of the crumbling of the gaming industry was a huge blow, more employees laid off and the closing of the biggest and best casino in this area. The rumor was that even more casinos would going to shut down, thus far it hasn't happened but the casinos are still struggling and scrambling for players and dollars. My thoughts are that they had to find a way to take maximum advantage of every dollar that passed thru every machine or the situation would get even worse. I'm guessing that the possibility of looking the other way or allowing some exceptions to the rules could have taken place, once again, I'm just guessing and expressing my thoughts and opinions. In any case I truly don't believe that if a casino was really caught cheating any of us would have a clue because that wouldn't be something they would want the public to know. The industry if far to fragile now.[/QUOTE]

[ko king]

Thanks Ko king, your post was an effective conveyance of your own experience and opinion.I would be interested to get a few more details about the incident with the shut down of the machines for 7 days.......where, when, which casino etc.     What else can you share that you have not?   Still, what you did share supports and agrees with a lot of what I have learned, and seen, and heard etc over the years.     AC is very VERY different from Vegas and Nevada in general (Reno is perhaps the better comparison to Atlantic City, or I should say the AC of 2007 before the place started to implode and fall apart......The similarities in SIZE and number of MAJOR casino resorts between Reno and AC-2007 is a lot closer than comparing Vegas to AC)      Part of my problem, or issue(s), with AC stems from the Prejudice I brought with me when I first started frequenting AC in 2009, when the place was well on its way to deteriorating and arriving at the point it is at now.I have already detailed how I spent a lot of time, both my own and for work, in LAs Vegas from 1992 through 2007.....I was able to learn and experience the Casino Industry from several perspectives, as a customer, a vendor/supplier and as a consultant (albeit for only about 18 months in this LAST capacity).    I saw and experienced and followed Vegas through the entire amazing dynamic explosive period that was 1992 through 2007, when one after another of the huge bigger-and-better-than-the-last  Mega resorts came online, and as the surrounding & supporting businesses and city grew with it.....This was my point of reference when it came to looking at, judging and evaluating any and all casinos (and the experiences and product that they offered) henceforth!   Needless to say, when I moved back home in late 2007, and then subsequently first visited Atlantic City in February 2009, I was in for a RUDE awakening, and disappointment, when I experienced the place for the first time!I could not believe much of what I saw and heard as I frequented AC casinos during the first 6 months or so after my initial visit.....the type and level of Service in AC compared to Nevada Casinos was shocking, and the gambling as well, how comps were distributed,  how guests & players were treated by hosts, it was all a let down and disappointing.    Obviously, the state of New jersey and the State of Nevada had two different approaches, philosophies, and attitudes to Gambling and the patrons who made it run, and they CLEARLY have two different sets of PRIORITIES (and Values) when it comes to regulating and maintaining the "industry" that exists within their statelines.     Our discussion about  VIDEO POKER and these issues of fairness/reliability/transparency is reflective of these differences!Your comment that it is not likely the actual RNG in each machine is any way altered or tampered with is OBVIOUS.....the simple component that generates the random numbers is inviolate, impossible to mess with without totally screwing up the rest of the game and without being totally OBVIOUS too!   Besides, the RNG is NOT the component that a casino needs to concern itself with if it wants to alter, or "modify" the end results anyway.....if it wants to impact the return% that a Video Poker game yields in ways OTHER than simply modifying the Paytable, it needs to access the actual PROGRAMMING that makes each video poker game work.....and how that is done is really the issue, or subject we need to focus upon, because in reality, if a Regulatory body like the NJ gaming commish is to truly do any type of "AUDITING" or "CHECKING" of video poker machines, this is what it would be checking.  Again, the actual chip or RNG is sealed and a simple glance is all one needs to see if it is intact.   No, the thing an auditor would be looking for (and AT) is the actual program "SETTINGS" for each video poker game.....<Simplified ILLUSTRATION for discussion purposes>(1)RNG generates CONSTANT STREAM of Random numbers, millions & millions of them throughout the day;      (2) Video Poker Game PROGRAM takes those Randomly generated results and "processes" them into actual GAME results utilizing established computer program "code" for the video poker game selected by the player;(3) The Video Poker Game Program then displays said results in a familiar enduser format (i.e. the cards we see on the screen!) and calculates what, if any, value those results yield to the player;(4) this "cycle" repeats itself over and over, indefinitely, until the casino removes or replaces the machine<end simplified Illustration>Having never actually seen these Program Settings, or CODE, myself, only heard of them second hand, I cannot speak to what they look like or what an auditor would specifically see, or any of that, but I can deduce what type of info, displays and things a auditor would be checking IF he/she/it were actually "Auditing" a specific video poker game/machine:    They would be looking to see WHAT settings are in place that the enduser (Casino in this case) has set up....it is Highly unlikely an auditor visiting a casino and auditing a machine is going to be looking at the actual CODE, line by line.   Nope, rather they would be looking to see if the casino has done something like set the frequency of NON PAYING hands (i.e. DUDS) to occur at a rate or frequency higher (or lower) than the expected NORM/Average for a 52 card deck (or 53 or 54 depending on the game.)     That's the simplest most straightforward way I can think of describing what I MYSELF have deduced and believe currently takes place.   I am sure everyone else has a different conception and opinion/belief set on what actually happens during the casino game/video poker  OVERSIGHT & Auditing process.I asked a long time ago for Bob Dancer to share what he knows about this, about this process and what actually happens, but alas he is not interested in sharing what he knows it seems.    SOMEONE out there KNOWS the process, KNOWS what gets checked, what it looks like, etc.    We KNOW the Nevada Gaming Commission is a dynamic, vigilant and vibrant organization that takes its job dead serious.....What is involved in the par tof their job that involves oversight and auditing video poker???? That is REALLY all we want to KNOW!!!   Screw our perception, or "OPINIONS"....what is the reality?   SOMEONE KNOWS, and I always figured if anyone knew it would be BOB.But Ko King raised several important points that I too have in the past brought out and which need continued consideration:    In the past, back when AC had all those "IN HOUSE" booths for the New Jersey Gaming Commission, and there were agents and staff in house 24/7, from the time casinos first appeared in the late 1970s  up through 2011 when Gov Christie and his supporters in the legislature decided to massively deregulate the state's casino industry, what CHANGED to make casino gaming so  resistant to the NEED for regulation and oversight???    Why did the casinos and all related to them and in them  NEED to be closely watched for 33 years, and then POOF, all of a sudden in 2011 they no longer needed that?



The few people that I have met that work as regulators have been super nice folks but none of them seem to have a clue about the games, fact is they all said that didn't even gamble. I was speaking to one of them and I was spouting off all kinds of vp statistics and they acted like I was speaking a different language, they finally asked where in the world I got my info from. Another time I ask one of them where they were previously employed and they said they sold used cars. One of the state employees I got to know pretty well came by to say hello and I noticed she was wearing a casino nametag, turns out she went to work at the casino. I also ask one of the machine techs about the vp machines in regards to the RNG, my question was pretty simple to understand, "is there anything other than the RNG that determines a players results", his response was, "yes, there is a secondary program".

[ko king]

This fragility is the very reason that skill-based gaming is going to start hitting the floor. The current crop of games is not appealing to players in general (IMHO). By making games that are more like live poker or sports-betting, where the casino takes a vig and then delivers a non-rigged gaming experience, players may start to return to the casinos since players are now competing against one another rather than the casino. Right now the casinos have no choice with the non-vig games like VP - either "tweak" the RNGs or go under.Of course the cover story is that they want to appeal to millennials with skill-based gaming, and to a small extent this is true, but mainly they want to introduce vig-based gaming since tweaking the RNGs is clearly alienating players like us. Actually I would be happy to pay a 5 dollar vig to be guaranteed a fair game of VP where each of the N cards (52 for non-wild card games or non-joker wild card games and >52 for joker games) has an equal probability of occurring (i.e. uniform pdf) on every hand. I mean, it's not much fun when you are playing 50-hand deuces wild for several hours with the express purpose of accessing the ducks and natural RFs in a much shorter time frame than single-line play, and then receiving no NRFs and maybe one or two ducks.Anyway, from a legal perspective, the casinos have found what they feel is a legally defensible way of interpreting the word "random", so really their only worry is that of economics.


In this area I don't think the regulatory body was very big to begin with, I've only seen a few agents in my 25 years of playing this area. In this area I have never, I repeat never seen any vp machines that were shut down or being checked with the exception of 1 very out of the way casino. I went by the casino to play vp and every machine in the casino was closed down with a note that said the machines should be back up and running in 7 days. I didn't go back to that casino for about a month but when I did the machines were back up and running. I didn't notice any change in the machines but I did have a problem with 1 of the machines and a machine tech came out to try and fix it while a sat by and watched him. I ask the tech why all the vp were closed a few weeks back and he said they were being checked, he also said he casino from what he ws told received some very healthy fines for reasons unknown to him and the casino had a new head of gaming. To this day I can't find anyone who has a clue what they were fined for other that one employee who said they thought it may have been because of underage players or machines that didn't function properly. I highly doubt it was because of machines not functioning properly because the casino still has some machines up and running that have horrible button issues and graphics that can barely be seen, they even have one machine that has a deal button that sticks and it will deal a hand and before you can hold the cards you choose the machine will throw out 5 new cards. I'm of the opinion that even if the regulators did check and found issues casino patrons would never know because it could cause more harm to an already suffering gaming industry in this area. I also don't think any casino would outright cheat or tamper with any RNG, I think every program that is running has been pre-approved and still intact. Where I get a little concerned is what may have been approved when the gaming industry here took a nosedive and hasn't recovered to this date.
           The following comment/comments are nothing more than my opinion but are based on actual events that took place. The casino industry in this area took 2 huge hits, one hit was due to the economy and the other came from mother nature, both of those factors caused casino revenues and player attendance to drop dramatically. All of the casinos took steps to try and maintain a profit margin, slot machines were adjusted to increase the take and comps were cut. Those two measures taken had a very negative effect on players and the profit margins and attendance fell even further. The next step was 1,000's of casino employees lost their jobs, this measure also had a negative effect on player attitudes as casino service suffered, it was no surprise that player attendance and profits still didn't improve. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that if you increase casino take on slots, cut back on comps, lay off employees and cut everything you can things are not going to get better, things got worse of course, much worse. The next phase of the crumbling of the gaming industry was a huge blow, more employees laid off and the closing of the biggest and best casino in this area. The rumor was that even more casinos would going to shut down, thus far it hasn't happened but the casinos are still struggling and scrambling for players and dollars. My thoughts are that they had to find a way to take maximum advantage of every dollar that passed thru every machine or the situation would get even worse. I'm guessing that the possibility of looking the other way or allowing some exceptions to the rules could have taken place, once again, I'm just guessing and expressing my thoughts and opinions. In any case I truly don't believe that if a casino was really caught cheating any of us would have a clue because that wouldn't be something they would want the public to know. The industry if far to fragile now.[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

I've always wondered how anyone could argue that a manmade program could or couldn't be random.

[DaBurglar]

This is good stuff.....I wonder if anyone else is reading any of this (at least ASTEROID's two posts)  besides Ko King and myself!!!???I am sure more than a few people are turned off by the seemingly lonnnnng posts contained herein, but that is too bad.....Asteroid's 2nd post was one of the better worded and argued statements I have ever read regarding this ongoing topic of HOW casinos manage their VP inventory and HOW they are (or are NOT) regulated!!!!!

[asteroid]

Thank you for the kind works Daburglar. I enjoy reading your and Ko Kings posts also. The only thing I forgot to add here was that large multinational corporations combed the IRS tax codes many years ago and figured out the loopholes so that they would not need to pay any (or would need to pay a very small percentage) taxes on their US revenues (by setting up off shore tax shelters and things of that nature). With this in mind, there is absolutely no reason that Casino and/or gaming corporations have not done the same thing with gaming regulations to figure out the loopholes to requirements for RNGs. This could be in the form of post-processing the random deal or some exception via a loophole for the restriction of class II games on the floor. I'm sure there are many other possibilities that I have not thought of.Have a great 4th of July.This is good stuff.....I wonder if anyone else is reading any of this (at least ASTEROID's two posts)  besides Ko King and myself!!!???I am sure more than a few people are turned off by the seemingly lonnnnng posts contained herein, but that is too bad.....Asteroid's 2nd post was one of the better worded and argued statements I have ever read regarding this ongoing topic of HOW casinos manage their VP inventory and HOW they are (or are NOT) regulated!!!!!