How do multi hand games affect variance

[olds442jetaway]

    I would love to know the answer to this on the games below. I don't have or have forgotten the expertise on how to compute this. I would love to see a chart for say 3 hand, 5 hand, and 10 hand vp for the following games and see how the variance compares to single line play. The games I would be interested in are job, deuces wild, bonus deuces wild, bonus poker, db poker, ddb poker, and tdb poker. I'm sure the forum would like to know this as well. If this info is already available in print, please direct me to the area where I can find it. Thanks. Whoever does this, gets some nice comps on me if they ever get up to Mohegan Sun. As far as paytables goes, any in the 98-99 range would be good for me for a reference. Even 96-97 if that is all some of us can find in their areas where they play.

[alpax]

Not at home right now, but I can only tell you for a few of the games you've mentioned on the website. For the other games I'll have to look at Video Poker for Winners software.

Here is the site

http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/appendix/3/

9/6 Jacks or Better

N=5 (Means 5 hands)

5 hands has a total variance of 27.380241

But you divide that by 5 to get the variance you are looking for.

27.380241 / 5 = 5.4760482

In general, the more hands, the lower the variance.

EDIT: I forgot the exact formula, but for the N=? hands. The overall total variance still increases, but if it is divided up some way, it will lower the average variance.

[alpax]

It took me a little while to get you the information you wanted, I used Video Poker for Winners to get it, a lot of mouse clicking around.

No one has reported full pay schedules for the games you've mentioned at Mohegan Sun, so I took the next best pay schedule variances if you are inclined to play them.

9/5 Jacks or Better

3-Play 7.8
5-Play 5.46
10-Play 3.7

7/5 Bonus Poker

3-Play 8.30
5-Play 5.81
10-Play 3.95

20/12/10 Deuces Wild

3-Play 10.177
5-Play 7.26
10-Play 5.08

9/6 Double Bonus

3-Play 12.48
5-Play 8.82
10-Play 6.07

9/5 Double Double Bonus

3-Play 17.25
5-Play 12.26
10-Play 8.52

9/6 Triple Double Bonus

3-Play 40.49
5-Play 28.56
10-Play 19.62

Turn out my example was right earlier. That was for 9/6 Jacks or Better.

[olds442jetaway]

Wow. Thanks Alpax. Let me know if you ever get out this way. If I am reading everything correctly, playing ten play games would give me the greatest shot at a quick but maybe small profit and the least chance of busting the bankroll for the day. If that is correct, now I know why the casinos never or almost never give us as good a paytable on multiline games as single line ones. Thanks again. That was a bit help. TDB looks nasty unless you have a huge bankroll or are extremely lucky.

     Edited to add....there are no full pay multi line games that I know of at Mohegan Sun. The closest I have found is that dollar All Star machine for spin poker. On the bonus deuces wild game, the return is 98.8 I am quite happy with that, but a pretty big roll is needed to play it for a full session.

[alpax]

You are very welcome olds.

To answer your other questions, generally the bankroll does stretch much longer when you are playing multiline. Mr. Dancer has mentioned about the benefit of multiline games but has warned us that most casinos will reduce the pay tables as a trade off.

I did commend Ted yesterday for playing a high variance Triple Double Bonus (which is 100 for the single line) into 10 play which reduces it all the way down to 19.6 (that is single line Jacks or Better variance!). Another thing is that the total wager must be the same too.

10-Play 10 cent TDB is equivalent to 1-Play $1 TDB in terms of cost. But the variance for the 10-play is much smaller although you are playing for the same wager. That is the reason Ted can stay in the game long enough to hit a Royal or the AWAK, though I hope one day he would hold that kicker.

One other benefit to multiline is that you are frequently winning at least something back. Compared to single line where you can whiff more than half of the time.

If you need to rack up points on your casino club card, playing multiline (as many lines as possible) can help tremendously. That is one thing I hope people can learn from reading onemoretry's trip reports.

10-Play Bonus Deuces Wild, you will win at least 5 credits 95.5% of the time.

However, the downside of multi line games aside from the lower pay tables is that every play errors are magnified.

Speaking of Bonus Deuces Wild, I forgot to include that information. I think it will be your best game to play. All you have to do on Spin Poker is to bet 3 lines, that will simulate something close to 3-play but the cards cannot repeat like the traditional multiline games. The 5 play has diagonals which share the middle two cards.

98.8% Bonus Deuces Wild

3-Play 13.27 - 72.23% Winning Rate
5-Play 9.51 - 84.59% Winning Rate
10-Play 6.69 - 95.53% Winning Rate

Unfortunately Video Poker for Winners cannot calculate the variance and bankroll needed for the full 9 lines of Spin Poker.

[Tedlark]

alpax, thanks for the compliment and you're spot on with lowering the variance when playing 10 hand machines. I've found that even when playing DreamCard TDB having a paying pair dealt and getting back 50% of my bet can stretch my play. It seems to be a bit less dramatic than playing DreamCard on a single line machine.

As for holding kickers, keep hope alive alpax, keep hope alive.....

[onemoretry]

If you need to rack up points on your casino club card, playing multiline (as many lines as possible) can help tremendously. That is one thing I hope people can learn from reading onemoretry's trip reports.
Racking up a lot of points is a very welcomed benefit of playing multiline games, but it's not the main reason I play multiline - I just think it's more fun.

One detail I left out of my account of play at the Tropicana is, that while playing 10 line 10c bonus poker there, and being up a considerable amount at the time, I hit the max play button and played 100 line 10c for a short time, i.e., $50 a play. It was OK for a few minutes, but after several crappy deals in a row, I switched back to 10 line.

   

[olds442jetaway]

Thanks again Alpax. If you are out this way during a weekday, an overnight,food, and maybe a show if offered on me.

[alpax]

alpax, thanks for the compliment and you're spot on with lowering the variance when playing 10 hand machines. I've found that even when playing DreamCard TDB having a paying pair dealt and getting back 50% of my bet can stretch my play. It seems to be a bit less dramatic than playing DreamCard on a single line machine.

As for holding kickers, keep hope alive alpax, keep hope alive.....

I did more personal study on multiline games when Mr. Dancer brought it up not too long ago. I was staggered initially by the results of its effect on Triple Double Bonus. I was wondering how you keep getting bailed out in your sessions which is a good thing, but I understand now.

I have not looked into Dreamcard as much, but to pay double the wager each time, you have to keep getting at least a little back to stay alive. I've seen how it will help you get the 3rd or 4th Ace you need on the draw when it triggers.

I'll back off from the TDB conversation other than the quiz, since I still would not touch it with a 10 foot pole myself. I thought it would be useful for prospective people to see the kicker situation from both sides of the argument.

Racking up a lot of points is a very welcomed benefit of playing multiline games, but it's not the main reason I play multiline - I just think it's more fun.

One detail I left out of my account of play at the Tropicana is, that while playing 10 line 10c bonus poker there, and being up a considerable amount at the time, I hit the max play button and played 100 line 10c for a short time, i.e., $50 a play. It was OK for a few minutes, but after several crappy deals in a row, I switched back to 10 line.



I understand more of your purpose to play Multiline now. Multiline might be a must for the long trips you take and pad the coin-in to rack up points, but if you have more fun with it, all the better.

I liked how Tropicana gave players the flexibility without a minimum bet. I saw someone playing just 5 lines 5 cent DDB off of the 50 play. Sorry to hear your big bets did not end up with a good result.

Thanks again Alpax. If you are out this way during a weekday, an overnight,food, and maybe a show if offered on me.

I hope to visit the Mohegan Sun one of these days, I heard many good things about it watching nationally televised Yankees games. I really appreciate the gratitude you've offered to me and the other forum members as well.

I did not answer if multiline was meant to be a quick profitable session or not. I suppose it will depend on the game. Bonus Poker and Jacks or Better will extend your session, but if going for something big, it has to be TDB and Bonus Deuces. Ted had pulled off big hits in short sessions I've recalled.

[Lucky Larry]

Alpax,
thanks for the great information. For those of us who play multi-line (hooked on it) the partial return does make a difference in longevity most of the time. We are lucky Coushatta provides 98% range multi-hand on all denominations of 2¢ and above on its 50/100 play. As stated in your TDB quiz we have regulars who only play TDB 50/100 play and usually do quite well on 9/6. A quad/K can make a huge difference especially when the variance/volatility has been lessened.

Thanks for your efforts to make us better players.   

Here's hoping for you Ted.