Shocking Numbers

[ko king]

We play mostly 98.9% deuces because it's the best we can find in the Southeast.   When we gamble in Nevada or Colorado we switch to NSU whenever it's available.  We play a little quarter full pay DW in Vegas. To be honest, we don't see much difference.  I'm sure if we had NSU or full pay to play all the time our results would be better long term.  Where the odds definitely make a difference is when you play millions of dollars a year.  Paying $20-$30 an hour for great entertainment seems like a good deal to me.  Losing $1,000 a week, I can imagine a lot more value for my money.  If you buy a nice boat for $200K  and sell it four years later, you will probably lose $100K.  Buy the right classic cars and you may even make money.   Lose $50K a year for four years playing video poker and all you have is $200K worth of memories.  I believe this fact needs to taken into account as part of your overall VP strategy.  Winning at VP (whatever that is) is more than hitting jackpots, it's also managing your money.We ran into this a few years ago when we were playing primarily at the Beau Rivage in Bilxoi.   Our trips were escalating from 1-2 trips a year to 5-6.  We were flying there for free, but the odds were so bad and we were making so many bad decisions we were losing more money than we were comfortable with.  It wasn't that we couldn't afford to lose the money, it was that we didn't think we were getting our money's worth.  We started cutting back on our gambling, saving it for places where the odds were better.   I'm not telling anyone what they should do with their own money.  What I'm pointing out is there is more to playing video poker than the game itself.   When you're playing for money, the money it costs to play also needs to be taken into consideration.Some people think you can turn a profit playing this game.  I'm not going to get into that discussion.   I am positive we can't, so the best thing we can do is balance our cost to play with the amount of enjoyment we get.


Many years ago in this area the possibility of turning a profit playing vp did exist. I never used to pay any attention to pay tables or even cared what casino I played in. After reading a couple of books on the subject and buying a practice program I thought I had it all figured out. One casino in our area had 10/6 DDB. I dedicated all my play to that casino, took advantage of all my free play offers and ended up just over $6K for the year. The casino ended up removing all the vp machines and replaced them with new machines and the best pay tables offered was 9/6. That was the end of me turning a profit playing. I played 9/6 for years and didn't do too bad, my losses were actually very small. Around 08 all the casinos were closed due to flooding in the area. When the casinos opened back up the machines were cold as ice, same machines, same pay tables. All the casinos were losing players by the bunches. I stuck around because I thought I was just going thru a bad streak. To this day nobody will ever convince me that the game didn't change. I've played, talked to other long term players and studied the numbers, it can't be the same game. The biggest casino in our area shut down a few years back and laid off 1,000's of employees, I had no idea that casino employed so many people. Anyway there was talk that several other casinos were at deaths doorstep and were about to close which would mean that 1,000's of other people would lose their jobs. Somehow, someway these casinos managed to keep their doors open despite the fact that players and revenue was dropping like a rock. To the best of my knowledge none of the other casinos went out of business, I don't have a clue how some of them stayed in business because at times I could walk around and count the number of people playing games. All the surrounding businesses that counted on the casinos to draw in customers for them have now closed down, there's barely anything left anymore that isn't a casino. The surrounding hotels that still exist are in horrible shape, the mall has completely shut down and the roads leading to the casinos are getting rough. To me there is little question, the people didn't change, the games changed. Late in 2016 talking to a few people that work at the casinos I discovered the best place to play old school vp, I was doing very well there, enjoying myself again playing the game. About 4 weeks ago they shut down every vp machine in the place for 2 days now it's just like all the other casinos.   

[paco13]

Had the same thing happen here. Had 10/6 DDB and did well, not necessarily winning all the time but could get a full days play in and leave satisfied. Comps were good and never had a problem getting a comp room even on the same day. When they legalized table games in PA all the 10/6 DDB and other good games disappeared. 9/6 DDB now is what we have. Amazing how quick you can burn through your BR now just from that change. The comps dropped off to and seems you need more to maintain tier status. As far as actually being able to use the comp room offers forget it. Every time I try they say they have no comp rooms left but I can pay for a room. WTH, an open room is an open room IMO and I am sure to spend more than the $300 plus per night while I am there and they should know this. Don't even get free food anymore just discounts. I only keep going 'cause I enjoy playing and its close enough. Have some new casinos opening close by soon so hope they are better, but they are in NY so not holding my breadth.
Sorry to use this thread as a whining session. Had a lousy VP session early this am.

[billryan]

Will the new New York casinos feature real video poker or will they be video lottery machines, like in the racinos?

[FloridaPhil]

Whatever you believe to be the cause, there is no doubt VP odds and comps have been slashed across the country.  I remember when the Beau Rivage had 9/6 Jacks.  Now the norm is 7/5.  Quirky games like Spin Poker, Ultimate X and the like make this even worse.   These changes make it critical to choose your game and where you play carefully.   With many States taxing slots on a local level plus disallowing offset losses, the deck is stacked so far against you losing is inevitable and the more you bet the more you lose.The best strategy in my opinion is to determine how much money you are willing to lose annually and work backwards.   Simple math should work this out.  It doesn't matter if your number is 5K, $10K , $50K or $100K or more as long as you are good with the number.   So far, we have been able to play all the VP we want and hold our combined net loses to under $10K annually while enjoying frequent free vacations.   For us this is acceptable.

[alpax]

*cough* Seneca Niagara *cough*

[paco13]

Been to Niagara, not much good VP there IMO. Worse than PA plus its about a 7 hour drive from here one way.

Billy, the new casino's are suppose to be "real" class 3. Don't know if they will have VP and/or what the pay schedules will be. My hope is they will want to compete and draw all of us who now go to PA and NJ by giving decent games, comps etc. 1 of them actually opened yesterday north of me near the capital. Will check it out soon probably to see what they have. Don't feel like dealing with the madness of the grand opening right yet.

[Bobbi]

ko king said something that stuck out to me. IF you feel like you are not getting your money's worth - you have to move on. I don't expect to win every time I step in to a casino but I also don't expect to lose every time.
If I lose 3 times in a row - I will look for my next casino. We have a bunch out here in Colorado and all have them have cut back on their freeplay so I don't feel the need to be loyal anymore.

[onemoretry]

Been to Niagara, not much good VP there IMO. Worse than PA There are, in fact, some pretty decent games at Seneca Niagara. I looked on vpFREE 2 and didn't see much, if anything, in the PA casinos that is better than Seneca's offerings.

Could you elaborate a bit as to what games you're referring to?

[FloridaPhil]

I think the most onerous new issue is State and local taxes.  My understanding is some States tax slot wins. Some tax lower than $1,200 and others don't allow offsetting losses.  Why would anyone want to take all the time and effort to play the best games accurately when the State is going to tax you for doing a good job?  Seems to me where you play may be a bigger decision than your game strategy.

[paco13]

I play mainly $1 denom DDB and TDB. Mount Airy is where I play most often. The only games listed as playable at Seneca with same or higher returns than Mount Airy are PKM poker 99.95% @ $1 and $5 denoms, JOB 99.54% @ $5 and $10 denoms and BP 99.17% @! .25, .50 and $1. I don't play any of those except BP now and again. I did find a couple interesting games while @ Seneca but nothing worth the travel. Don't recall the exact games. I couldn't get near the PKM's if I wanted to. I'm not saying I wouldn't return for an extended visit/vacation. Seneca is a very nice place. It is just that for my regular weekly play they would have to offer some significantly better games to make it worth the long commute if I could even find the time.