Time to consider leaving the forum

[OTABILL]

I joined VP and this forum in 2009 for many reasons. Learning the math was not one of them as I already was well versed in EV, etc.. I had access to and used Dancer/Zamzow’s Win Poker extensively when I started playing VP in addition to reading several books on the subject. As a recreational player, my main interest was and still is learning about participant’s experiences playing and visiting different casinos, locations, nearby restaurants, points of interest and other associated facts. Until my wife and I stopped playing locally because of smoke/health issues, our main reason for playing was enjoyment and stress release. As I mentioned several times over the years, most recently in a post entitled, “The “long term” is not guaranteed,” my wife and I have looked at each VP excursion as a separate occurrence. We budget a specific amount to spend on each outing. If we came out ahead, we were paid to be entertained. If not, we were no worse than had we spent the money on another recreational activity.
When I explained this perspective over the years, whether folks agreed or disagreed, only twice was I the subject of extremely hostile verbiage. The most notable was Bob Dancer. I completely understood his disagreement with my philosophy his reasons for doing so. However, he was sarcastic and derisive in doing so. This was one of the reasons the Recreational Play category was established.
Unfortunately, in viewing posts over during the last few months, it seems as if one’s views in playing VP are not completely governed by strict adherence to the math/AP model, they are not tolerated. Disagree, fine but be broad minded enough to accept the diversity of opinion. In the past, one could express a view without being subject to ridicule and nastiness.
Several years ago, I started a topic called Civility which I resurrected at least once to get posters to refrain from incendiary language and personal insults. Quite frankly, I had hoped there would be no need to revise this topic. I will let others deal with this as I no longer feel my views are welcome in this forum. I am undecided as to whether I just stop posting or leave the forum entirely. Will give it some thought as I really don’t appreciate spending my spare time immersed in reading so many negative posts.

[frogface]

Interesting post Otabill. We too are recreational players and enjoy the casino experience including local attractions, restaurants etc. It's entertainment for us.

A few years ago we attended a workshop by Bob Dancer and personally witnessed his rude behavior and bullying. He seemed to enjoy making participants look foolish.

I am not sure why some see the need to be hostile and condescending. Maybe their own insecurities? Anyway, for the most part I enjoy reading the forum posts and hearing of other's experiences. I hope you will stay on, but you have to do what works for you. Good luck at the Casinos and hope you continue to enjoy your casino outings!

[pokerforme]

You will be sorely missed Otabill. I agree with much of what you said. The only difference for me is I stopped coming here until recently returning to find it worse than ever. The problem lies on both sides not just the pros. Used to be a decent forum with loads of information, now it's just a argument.

[billryan]

Interesting post Otabill. We too are recreational players and enjoy the casino experience including local attractions, restaurants etc. It's entertainment for us.

A few years ago we attended a workshop by Bob Dancer and personally witnessed his rude behavior and bullying. He seemed to enjoy making participants look foolish.

I am not sure why some see the need to be hostile and condescending. Maybe their own insecurities? Anyway, for the most part I enjoy reading the forum posts and hearing of other's experiences. I hope you will stay on, but you have to do what works for you. Good luck at the Casinos and hope you continue to enjoy your casino outings!

Strange. I've attended dozens of his classes and never have seen him be rude to anyone.
He might ask you a question about something he just went over, but that's about it.
Am I mistaken is this your first post in a year?

[pokerforme]

Although I have never got the chance to take one of Bobs classes I will say he has shown all those traits on this forum multiple times over the years. He has a very short approach and can come across badly at times. I never worried about his approach instead I took in the knowledge he offered.

[billryan]

I wasn't around long before he left, so I can't speak to his posting habits. Only his teaching methods.

[DaBurglar]

I wasn't around long before he left, so I can't speak to his posting habits. Only his teaching methods.Well there is this thing called "History" and if you want, you can go back and look up his posts from the period just before you were "around"....it won't take you very long to see the point others are making, so don't be intimidated by the time it might cost.Mr. Dancer's attitude and "tone" never annoyed me as much as it annoys others, but I've always focused on the details and little things that he posted every now and then.....In short, he is obviously 100% vested in his lifestyle as a casino "mushroom"....he lives and exists in casinos, and his choice of VP as the vehicle to ensure that existence is not surprising as it still affords the chance, in places like vegas and reno, for astute players to live in and off of casinos.   If that life appeals to you, great....but it is not the leisurely, easy, wonderful experience some people might think, it is a lot of.....WORK, and Bob did make that much clear.   But his pursuit and dedication to "Advantage Play", and his statements to the effect that Advantage Play will over time ensure the results that he claims he consistently achieves, is not a guarantee that someone else can achieve what he and a select clique of others achieve.....and he gave you all the clue as much to this which nobody seemed to pick up upon:A while back, Bob made the simple yet telling statement in one of his posts here that, while he shares all his mathematical and technical and logistical "know-how" with his students and people who purchase his products, there are certain "insider tricks and methods" that he admitted to utilizing to ensure his profitability, and that these things he does NOT share.   well, DUH!      there ya go......and I can't blame him for that.But still, Otabill leaving is not something I am glad to see....he seems like a genuinely nice person and I hope he stays and finds a way to just ignore the things that bother him.  

[FAA]

They're dropping like flies, just like our VP bankrolls. Everybody just stick to quarters and have a good time at a fraction of the loss. Peace out.

[Tedlark]

What DaBurglar failed to mention about Bob Dancer writing about not being willing to share some special inside plays was that Bob also wrote that these special inside plays were available but people had to be willing to do the work and find them on their own.Those special or insider plays are not only available to Bob Dancer, they are also available to DaBurglar too; if he were willing to do the work and find them. I believe Bob (and billryan can probably confirm this) also stated that he knew of several special plays at some Florida casinos as well. I personally believe that in New Jersey special plays are like birds: they are there,not many, but they are there.

[billryan]

At the recently concluded Wizard of Odds con, several people discussed Advantage Plays that were not to be posted on the internet. Mr Dancer was not in attendance.
It would be foolhardy to discuss exploitable situations while they still exist. Either the casino will read them or somebody will drop a dime.
Several plays in Florida were discussed, but as I am thousands of miles away and not at the level to put in the needed coins,they aren't much value to me.
I'm currently working a promotion that is an EV of $40 per day, and might be possible to double up. Found it on my own and would trade it for something similar.
It's literally around the corner from my house so I plan on hitting it everyday.
It's one of the reason establishing a network of players of similar play is important.
This play isn't worth much to a $1 player but is great for the quarter player.
I'll bite on a $10 situation if I can string three or four together in an afternoon.
Other people, self professed millionaires who vacation with the blue bloods in exotic places can't be bothered.
In this world, while people are willing to trade, few are willing to give freely.
Many people blame the decline in good games to the fact that people published strategies to exploit them.
I don't. I think the rise in popularity of very low paying slots caused management to realize the general public doesn't give a fig about payback.