Why I Play VP my Way

[FloridaPhil]

I admit this is a long post.   If you are not interested in Recreational VP or my opinions, feel free to skip it and move on to something more to your liking.  I expect it will inspire a few negative comments.  I wish to
go on record by saying I am not posting here to "teach" anyone
anything.  I am not an expert "for profit" VP player and you should know
that.  What I am an expert in is making myself happy and that is my
only goal.Most recreational VP players like me go to the casino for a good time.   They may or may not be aware of profit based VP strategy.   Some may even have worked on their playing skills to a point where they can play fairly close to the games expected return.   Our personal choice in the games we play and how we play them is not profit alone.   You may have a hard time understanding why someone would choose a strategy that is mathematically guaranteed to lose money?If your goal is long term profit, the path is well documented.  Seek out and play only games with a positive expected return perfectly and have a bankroll big enough to last through any down turn.   If your goal is different than long term profit, a recreational player may choose strategies that meet their personal goal regardless of the effect on their long term profit.  In simple terms "Fun is where you find it." For example, suppose you have a limited playing budget.   When you go to the casino you don't want to bust in 10 minutes, you came there to have as much fun as possible with the money you came with.  For you, having fun means playing longer.   By playing single coin you can have five times more "fun" than a max coin player.    This is great until you hit a royal flush.  At this point your single coin strategy comes home to roost and it's time to "pay the piper" by staring at a short coin royal. Some years ago, my wife and I were faced with a dilemma.   On a day back in 2008 we had an incredible run of luck at a particular casino.   Not knowing any better and with a severely limited bankroll, I hit 4 single line royal flushes in 24 hours.  Three were for $4,000 each and one was $1,000.  Our luck continued when I switched to DDB and hit a run of dollar quad aces that you only dream about.   Our pockets were stuffed with $100s and we later found $2,000 in a pocket we didn't even remember.  Why I didn't win the lotto on the way home was amazing.  After that day, the casino invited us to come back all expenses paid.  They flew us from Florida and drove us from the airport to the casino then put us up in an oceanfront room.   Their expected outcome came true and we started to give them back their money.  The odds of their games were less than 97% and we had no clue what correct VP strategy was.   We lost $3,000 in three days and went home.  A week later we got a mailer inviting us back.   This time they offered to give us a suite.   Over the next year we played in this casino and eventually gave them all their money back.   When that was gone, we started to give them our own money.  Playing with the casino's money is fun.  Losing our own was not.Eventually, we learned that by playing single coin in that casino we could cut our losses to manageable levels.   While playing single coin was definitely cheaper, I have to admit is wasn't as much fun.   I worked on this in my mind for a long time.  How can we play single coin cheap while still retaining the excitement of a possible max coin jackpot?  Mathematics never entered into my thought process.  I knew the odds were severely negative, so what did it matter what strategy I used if I was going to eventually lose anyway?   I won't go into it here, but this is how CS was born.  CS was never intended to be a "for profit" VP strategy.  It extends your play with the same coin in, limits your short term loses when playing a negative VP game and restores some level of excitement back into single coin play.  It will most likely cost you more money long term than playing max coins depending upon how lucky you are.   No knowledgeable "for profit" VP player would accept a strategy based on luck and I wouldn't expect them to.   In the last few years I have abandoned CS and decided to play max coins limiting my play to only games with odds greater than 98% including comps.  The games I currently play are nearer 99% and we consider this acceptable.The question every VP player should ask is "Why are you going to the casino in the first place?"    Only you can answer that question.

[lovetocook]

Interesting, no one likes loosing money. Glad that you found a routine that works for you.

[FloridaPhil]

Thank you.  The strategy we are currently using is not rocket science. Playing VP games with the best odds available and using computer generated play strategy is well proven to give you the best result possible under your particular circumstances.  However, I believe there is a point in the odds where playing max coins is counterproductive over time.  Currently, I believe that point is around 97%.  If you are only going to play for a few hours, I don't believe the odds matter that much.  The more you play, the more the odds affect your results.In my opinion, there is no absolute "guarantee" that any VP strategy or methodology will make money in the real world.   The mathematical calculations you see supporting the ability of a player to beat the casinos are based on an infinite number of hands played.  Playing positive games perfectly with an adequate bankroll keeps the odds in your favor, but even then you are limited by chance and the number of hands you can play in your lifetime.   You can run simulations until the world ends and the only ones that really matter are the ones that happen when you play the game.  For this reason some players will beat the casino and many more will not.

[billryan]

bump

[singert6]

Thanks for the insight. You were honest and offered some great advice.

[FAA]

97 or 99.5, negative results will plague us more often then not. My choice is to play at an awkward molasses pace or play a good percentage of the hands sub max and pray to avoid the RF. It's VP, so comps are negligible.

[onemoretry]

.....or play a good percentage of the hands sub max and pray to avoid the RF. The best possible hand you can get, and you pray that you don't get it? What does that say about this style of play?

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry] What does that say about this style of play?[/quote]It says he doesn't believe in "buying" a royal flush. What most players don't realize is that playing max coins on a negative VP game often costs more than they gain from a max coin royal flush.  No one "likes" hitting a short coin royal even if they saved money by doing so.    Most players ignore the cost because they are conditioned to believe a royal is the ultimate prize in VP.  Only thinking about wins without thinking about losses is where the problem lies.I don't recommend anyone play single coin unless they are willing to accept the consequences.  Playing single coin allows you to play more hands with the same money, but it does come with a big downside.  Like the say "There is no free lunch!". Actually there is if you play positive VP games at South Point.  

[buffalochips]

Taxes anyone???Why are taxes never factored into "returns" on vp---on any paytables---by so-called pros and veterans that brag about playing the best games and hitting above-$1200 hands?????IA/MS skims up front are brutal---before you get to enjoy the win/think about personal income consequences...Just wondering how come EVERYONE forgets about TAXES!!!!!

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=buffalochips]Just wondering how come EVERYONE forgets about TAXES!!!!!
[/quote]I have always wondered that myself.  Some states have huge gambling taxes.  For example, in Mississippi it's 3% right off the top.  The guys in Connecticut tell me they're bad as well.  To make matters worse, you can't offset your losses.  What good does it do to seek out a 1% positive VP game if the State is taking 3% of your wins? The Fed will take their share too.