Why Banning Single Coin Players is Stupid

[FloridaPhil]

Single coin players could be smarter than you think.   They give up a little more than 1% of their return for being able to play 5 times as many hands with the same money.   They also run 1/5 of the money through the machines as a max coin player, which cuts their losses on negative games.  Single coin players are not APs and most don't care.  They play negative VP games and are not fooled by the hype that VP is a beatable game by just anyone.   They may believe some people do it, but they know they can't. Most single coin players are retirees.  Most don't see like they used to and the idea that anyone over 70 can play error free for weeks on end is doubtful.  Would you want your Grandma to play max coins?  I sure wouldn't.  I would be pleased to see her play as frugal as possible.  At least I wouldn't have to worry that I was going to have to pay their bills when they went bankrupt.   The next time you see someone playing single coin, don't pity them or get mad because they're playing cheap.  They're playing VP cheaper by the hour than you and I'll bet they are losing less as well.The next time you go to the casino, take $50 bucks with you and see how long that lasts at max coins. 

[billryan]

“WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US.”

[FloridaPhil]

What's even stupider is advising all players to use the same strategy despite the differences in their skills, opportunities and bankroll.   Casinos love this because their customers are playing mostly losing games.The casino is there to make money.   They want you to have a good time, but they also want you to give them as much of your money as possible.  They are experts at using our human frailties against us.  Part of this strategy is to use rare jackpots as bait to get you to gamble more money and stay longer.  Walk around the casino and look at the Grand Jackpots posted on the slot machines.  The royal flush is the Grand Jackpot of VP.The casino wants you to believe you can beat them at their game.  They spend millions of dollars to promote this.  They don't want you to play all day for peanuts.  They want you to bet bigger and bigger until they have to put you up a penthouse to get you to stay there.  Playing single coin quarters is one method that a small time player can use to beat the casino.   You won't make money, but you won't lose much either.I believe there are a few people who can beat VP.  They play only when the odds are in their favor.  They have skills, discipline and the bankroll to last through serious downturns and they maximize their wins with comps and incentives.   Unless you are willing to devote serious time, money and energy into this pursuit, I believe you will be better off financially to limit your loses by playing as small as possible.Playing small may not be for you.   I never play single coin quarters anymore.   I don't because it's bad or wrong.   I like hitting max coin jackpots and I'm willing to pay extra to do so.   Banning it so others can't play that way or telling players on this forum there is something wrong with it,  is exactly what the casinos want to hear.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]I, for one, am not in favor of banning single-coin players from casinos. As has been said by others, we need these people in casinos so casinos can afford to offer better games. I am in favor of banning them from the Video Poker Strategy Forum. I am certainly not in charge here, but I would like to keep the Video Poker Strategy Forum for players who wish to discuss how to win. If anybody wants to take the “we can’t beat the casino so we’re trying to lose less,” fine, but not here. The Recreational Forum is suitable for that topic. That’s also the perfect place for a “It’s not whether you win or lose but whether or not you have fun!” discussion. Winning players need folks like that too to help keep good games around. These players can rant and rave all they want in that forum.  If you’re somebody strongly opposed to that discussion, stay out of that forum.There is nothing inherently wrong with the “one coin” argument per se. If you state that you’re in favor of it once or twice, fine. That’s enough. But stating that you’re in favor of it hundreds (maybe thousands) of times, using the same arguments over and over and over again, makes it very difficult for players who wish to win to have a place to communicate.We have the makings of a “separate but equal” segregation here. That policy didn’t work very well when it came to education, but hopefully it can work here.[/quote]Wise words.  If we had this post a few years ago, there would have been no need to repeat the same thing hundreds or thousands of times.  Thank you!This is an important discussion for the average recreational player.  The small denomination VP games found in most of today's casinos are seriously negative. At the casinos where I play, I watch rows of players pounding away at quarter 8/5 Double Double Bonus. With perfect play at 500 hands an hour this game is a $20 plus an hour loser at max coins.   Most recreational players play much faster, losing $50 an hour or more.  Many of these players are losing hundreds of dollars a day just so they can see a max coin royal once in who knows when.  If they switched to single coin quarters they could reduce their cost to play to less than $6 an hour.   Before I came, no one ever talked about this on this forum and that bothers me.  It shouldn't.  I'm not going to be standing out in front of a casino with placards any time soon.   I believe everyone should enjoy VP however they want to play it as long as they understand the ramifications of what they do.Unless someone brings it up again, I'm done discussing single coin VP play.  Hopefully the peace will hold.

[DAAnMAAn]

In Defense of single coin playing....
As a disclaimer, I play in Vegas almost solely playing positive games and always bet max bet for that reason. Also I don't mind additional risk, I have the bankroll, and want all the gold for the royal. Having said all that, single coin play can make alot of sense!...
FloridaPhil...you have nothing to apologize for and banning alternative thoughts and theories thought "dangerous" by elites sounds like an unfortunate replay of many episodes of history. Not just gambling but religion, science,philosophy, etc. After all, once upon a time, saying the world was round and not flat could of brought dire consequences to oneself.
   At any rate, the reality is, most video poker is tight and negative... and getting tighter and more negative. Now one is lucky to find 99% pay tables let alone 100% or greater. Don't believe me? Take a walk on the vegas strip next time in vegas and look up the pay tables.
Here are a few arguments to support single coin play...
1. On a negative game, the more one bets, the more one loses...quite simple and tough to dispute. Let's push slot club points and promos aside for sake of argument and take ugly deuces as an example. It's a 98.9% game.
     Take two $1 dollar players who play for one hour on this game and assume they play perfectly. One plays max coins, one plays single coin. They both play 1,000 hands an hour. So...with the max coin player, he gets $5,000 coin thru, earns the bonus for the royal flush and thus earns the full 98.9% return for the game and earns a theoretical loss of $50.50.
     The second player plays single coin, same hands per hour and puts in $1,000 coin thru, does not get the royal bonus and earns a diminished return of the game of 1% or 97.9%. He earns a theoretical loss of $21.00
So...max better loses $50.50, single coin loses $21.00. Which one would you choose?
2. Single coin requires smaller bankroll. No brainer.
3. Single coin can allow a lower better to play higher on better pay tables. One can play, for example, deuces wild machine where quarter and fifty-cent play is an ugly deuces pay table...but go to dollars and it turns into a Not So Ugly pay table. Single coin would allow that individual to play a better table with a lesser roll and get more for the more common hits.
4. Single coin players can play longer and thus have more opportunity to hit the jackpot hits with less money.
5. In most vp bars, single coin will still earn you that free drink. Yay.
     In sum, I'm fortunate whereas I have access or opportunity to play vp games that are positive and single coin play becomes counter-productive. On the other hand, most video poker machines in the US are negative games and I'm surprised more aren't playing single coin strategy as max coin becomes costly and also counter-productive. Unless someone has the bankroll and wants the max bonus for royals, which come around about 1 in 40k hands if one is lucky.
    Lastly, I will say this. The day videopoker dot com starts banning single coin players or other alternative theorists (I'm not privy on the Fa La La La La.... La la la la details so will just leave it be) on the game is the day I revoke my membership and contributions to the forum and the site. It's wrong, just like it was wrong in history's past wrongs.
Cheers

[FloridaPhil]

Thank you for this well thought out reply.   I have been on this forum for over 8 years.   My battle with the forum "Elites" as been a long and tiring one.  I got into it because the VP I see is not the VP they are describing.  In my over 10 years of VP play, I have only seen a positive VP game once and that was a quarter game in Las Vegas.   I have never made a long term profit grinding it out at max coins.  The only way I ever got ahead of this game was when I hit lucky pot shots big enough to cover my losses.  I have been lucky enough for this to happen many times.I got into single coin play as a way to "tread water" on long VP vacations.  If you are going to play negative VP games solid for three days or a week, you better have a plan or you will be making a lot of trips to the ATM.  By playing cheap 90% of the time and making bigger bets 10%, I was able to make it work as long as I had the discipline to return to cheap play when the fireworks were over.   I realized this is a "luck" strategy, but it works for me and I enjoy it.Everyone has to find what works for them.  If a player wants to grind it out on a positive game waiting for math to make them a profit, I'm fine with it.  All I ever wanted on this forum was to be able to talk about playing VP my way without being insulted or called stupid.   Alternative VP strategies should be something we can discuss openly even if we disagree on their effectiveness. To me, long term winning at VP is more about money management than math.    In business school they taught us general ledger.   There are two sides to every business, profit and expense.  You can't win unless you get your expenses under control. 

[billryan]

In Defense of single coin playing....
As a disclaimer, I play in Vegas almost solely playing positive games and always bet max bet for that reason. Also I don't mind additional risk, I have the bankroll, and want all the gold for the royal. Having said all that, single coin play can make alot of sense!...
FloridaPhil...you have nothing to apologize for and banning alternative thoughts and theories thought "dangerous" by elites sounds like an unfortunate replay of many episodes of history. Not just gambling but religion, science,philosophy, etc. After all, once upon a time, saying the world was round and not flat could of brought dire consequences to oneself.
   At any rate, the reality is, most video poker is tight and negative... and getting tighter and more negative. Now one is lucky to find 99% pay tables let alone 100% or greater. Don't believe me? Take a walk on the vegas strip next time in vegas and look up the pay tables.
Here are a few arguments to support single coin play...
1. On a negative game, the more one bets, the more one loses...quite simple and tough to dispute. Let's push slot club points and promos aside for sake of argument and take ugly deuces as an example. It's a 98.9% game.
     Take two $1 dollar players who play for one hour on this game and assume they play perfectly. One plays max coins, one plays single coin. They both play 1,000 hands an hour. So...with the max coin player, he gets $5,000 coin thru, earns the bonus for the royal flush and thus earns the full 98.9% return for the game and earns a theoretical loss of $50.50.
     The second player plays single coin, same hands per hour and puts in $1,000 coin thru, does not get the royal bonus and earns a diminished return of the game of 1% or 97.9%. He earns a theoretical loss of $21.00
So...max better loses $50.50, single coin loses $21.00. Which one would you choose?
2. Single coin requires smaller bankroll. No brainer.
3. Single coin can allow a lower better to play higher on better pay tables. One can play, for example, deuces wild machine where quarter and fifty-cent play is an ugly deuces pay table...but go to dollars and it turns into a Not So Ugly pay table. Single coin would allow that individual to play a better table with a lesser roll and get more for the more common hits.
4. Single coin players can play longer and thus have more opportunity to hit the jackpot hits with less money.
5. In most vp bars, single coin will still earn you that free drink. Yay.
     In sum, I'm fortunate whereas I have access or opportunity to play vp games that are positive and single coin play becomes counter-productive. On the other hand, most video poker machines in the US are negative games and I'm surprised more aren't playing single coin strategy as max coin becomes costly and also counter-productive. Unless someone has the bankroll and wants the max bonus for royals, which come around about 1 in 40k hands if one is lucky.
    Lastly, I will say this. The day videopoker dot com starts banning single coin players or other alternative theorists (I'm not privy on the Fa La La La La.... La la la la details so will just leave it be) on the game is the day I revoke my membership and contributions to the forum and the site. It's wrong, just like it was wrong in history's past wrongs.
Cheers


What an utter load of carp by someone who claims to know the game.
Let's just throw away the slot clubs and promotions. The very things that determine where and what to play. But let's just ignore them. Rookie mistake #1.
Single coin players have a better chance of hitting jackpots? 99.9% machines don't have any jackpot for less than full coins, so this is nonsensical.
Playing single coins gets you drinks in bars?
Is that why you play ,in the first place? To get free drinks?
In summary, if you ignore a huge source of revenue, enjoy $62 royals and are too cheap to pay for a drink, single coin is the game for you.Cheers.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BillRyan]What an utter load of carp by someone who claims to know the game.
[/quote]I guess he didn't get Mr. Dancer's memo.   "If you’re somebody strongly opposed to that discussion, stay out of that forum.  We have the makings of a “separate but
equal” segregation here. That policy didn’t work very well when it came
to education, but hopefully it can work here."  Bob Dancer

[Tedlark]

I must have missed where Bob Dancer posted in this forum what Phil posted and quoted? Did that come from somewhere in another forum other than in this thread?

   

[buffalochips]

This "Grumpy Old Men" routine really needs to end.....