Can't lose VP Games?

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=billran]Did you ever stop to consider if people didn't play **** games, casinos just might offer better ones?[/quote]Absolutely.   At one time my wife and I were making 4-6 trips to Biloxi a year,   It was our favorite casino trip even though it is a 9 hour drive from our house in Central Florida.  After Katrina the odds kept getting worse and worse.  Eventually, we looked for better pastures.   About that time we happen to notice a small group of VP machines at the Hollywood Hard Rock with our favorite DW game.   We moved our trips to Hollywood shortly their after.   Our favorite game has about a 1% house edge so we play max coins.  This isn't the great odds you have at South Point, but it is acceptable.In the beginning we didn't think the Hard Rock would offer us anything as the rooms in Miami are very expensive. To our surprise as a couple we were playing at the Elite level.  Three years later we find we can get comped rooms in Hollywood most anytime we wish.  Their point system is set up to reward frequent players.  We never pay for meals anymore and our free play is pretty decent.The Beau Rivage in Biloxi still sends us offers for free flights and as many rooms as we want. The odds are so bad we don't bite.   If the Beau had decent VP odds, we would go back.  As it is the gulf will freeze over before we return.  The same thing happened in Cherokee NC.   At one time the VP odds were just OK, now they're terrible.   All over the country new casinos are opening up.  Players have more options than ever.    There is no need for CS or any other money saving scheme if the casinos stop fleecing their regular customers.  As long as Hollywood keeps the small bank of good machines, we are loyal.  This is what a good casino should be doing.  Have a few VP games with decent odds for those who care and a lot of lousy games for those who don't.The answer is to scout the casinos and find those better games. Until then you can play cheap.  When I am forced to play CS, it's a huge thrill to be playing two bits a throw and hit a $1,000 max coin royal and it happens more frequently than you may think.  I snicker under my breath and say "take that you cheap bastards!"     

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry]As I recall, you did not hesitate at all to mention your successes in
the considerable harangue that accompanied CS. You may not have said:
"You can do it, too", but there was a very strong inference that max
coin jackpots were just around the corner.[/quote]This is exactly the problem I have with Bob Dancer's marketing.    He once stated on this forum that I wasn't intelligent enough to win because I was not willing to play big enough.  I started with nothing.  My father was a Sears Roebuck TV repairman with 4 kids.   I earned my money the hard way and I'm not giving it to a casino by the truck load.  How Bob Dancer got his money I don't know and I don't care.  All I know is if he had to earn it the way I did, I doubt he would be so quick to risk it in a slot machine.The difference is CS urges people to bet small to save money and he told me I was stupid for not betting bigger.   I think my claims do less damage.

[Chicagoan]

Phil, as for Biloxi: I have been going there since they first legalized casinos in Mississippi about 25 years ago. The VP odds have become steadily worse. Up until about 5 years ago, you could still find some pretty good paytables at IP in Biloxi. Now, the only decent VP I can find on the entire coast is way over in Hancock County at the small Silver Slipper casino. Good but not great. (However, I have not been to the new Scarlet Pearl -- anyone know?)

There is a lot of casino traffic on the coast, so I do not know why the casinos turned on their VP players like they did. However, as I have often posted here, Beau Rivage is by far the worst of the worst in terms of paytables. It is cruise ship VP --- horrible.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Chicagoan]However, as I have often posted here, Beau Rivage is by far the worst of
the worst in terms of paytables. It is cruise ship VP --- horrible.[/quote]I actually have been on cruise ships where the odds were better.  The last time I was in the Beau Rivage high limit room the $5 Jacks or Better odds were 7/5.   I would calculate the loss per hour, but I can't count that high.

[FAA]

Some real horror stories on Halloween. Move over, Edgar Allan Poe! Glad I have an acceptable venue like AC as my operating room. Even there it's frigid when the machines are cold, so I mainly two bit my way through at first, a burglar on tip toe. I can't just empty my meager wallet in hope of a quick hit. CD alleviates pain better than Advil. I'll either score and door or cut cost and loss.

[Vman96]

The reason I made this post is because CS has been given a bad rap by Bob Dancer and a few of his followers.  CS was never a winning strategy and I never said it was.   The fact that I came out positive over a two year period using it is not relevant.    Two years is not log term and winning wasn't my goal.   It's a way to extend play and retain the possibility of a max coin jackpot, that's it.Some Vegas players believe their positive VP games and comps are available all over the planet.  Bob talks like everyone has enough money to burn that they can play big enough to earn valuable comps.   Neither of these things are true. I'm not beating a dead horse here.  Bob posted CS makes no sense, so I explained why he is wrong.   Bob says to never play negative games.  If everyone in the world followed his advice we wouldn't have quarter VP outside of Vegas.  I say play them, but play them cheap.  Where is the problem with me encouraging people to save money?Enough already.  If you have a good deal like we currently have at the Hollywood Hard Rock, play max coins.  If you don't, play as cheap as possible.  Maybe your casino will get the message and decide to give you a better return? 

I never gave you real flak for playing in this manner. Also in some cases, it's not a bad idea depending on your end goal, and Bob actually agreed with this in particular scenarios! Although you're right in generally saying that Bob would tell you to not play at all is a better alternative, but I think that is a poor suggestion for a rec player.

The thing that bugged me the most about your foray into CS was that you would take "pot shots" at the $5 level betting one, but the EXACT SAME paytable existed at the $1 level, so you were just pissing money away with no valid reason on those $5 machines when you bet one coin.

And the math is beyond me to calculate (especially for free), but I would love to know what the odds were that you would end up ahead with CS method. They aren't that great I'm sure. Even if you played max coin at all times, the odds are still against you given the casinos you usually frequented.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Vman96]The thing that bugged me the most about your foray into CS was that you
would take "pot shots" at the $5 level betting one, but the EXACT SAME
paytable existed at the $1 level, so you were just pissing money away
with no valid reason on those $5 machines when you bet one coin.

And the math is beyond me to calculate (especially for free), but I
would love to know what the odds were that you would end up ahead with
CS method. They aren't that great I'm sure. Even if you played max
coin at all times, the odds are still against you given the casinos you
usually frequented.[/quote]This is a legitimate question that should be answered.When you play CS quarters all day, you lose very little money and you win bigger when you hit a max coin jackpot.  I think the most I ever lost on a three day trip with CS was about $300.  Back then, I budgeted $300 a day for my gambling.  Lack of money wasn't my problem, I just hate to lose.  This gave me extra money for what I called "Pot Shots".   To me a pot shot is a $20 bet at a higher denomination than quarters.   I had the choice of picking any game I wanted to play and to play it any way I wanted.  The key was to never go over my $300 a day gambling budget.Because I liked CS, I used it for my pot shots at the dollar and $5 level.  If I played max coin dollars, this gave me a minimum of 4 hands of play.  If I played single coin dollars, I had 20 hands.  A single coin dollar quad deuce pays $200, only $50 less than max coins.  This I could accept.  A single coin dollar royal pays $250.  Instead of being mad when I hit one, I learned to be happy with the $250 windfall.  This was easy because 90% of my play was at single coin quarters.During my pot shots I still went to max coins after every 4 coin win.  Every now and then I would hit a $1,000 max coin dollar quad deuce pot shot and I realized it paid the same as a max coin quarter royal.  The dollar play VP odds were also 2% better.  This worked for me, so I migrated to $5 machines to try my luck at even bigger denominations.  What I discovered was interesting.  For some unknown reason, I hit three $1,000 $5 single coin quad deuces three weeks in a row.   I am definitely not saying there is any magic to single coin play, but the facts are what they are.  Later on I hit a $4,000 max coin dollar royal pot shot at the Tampa Hard Rock.  It was a very good year.I gamble for excitement, but I don't want to clean out my bank account. The thrill of playing $5 games with CS is unbelievably exhilarating.  On every hand you have a chance of turning a $20 bill into a $5,000 quad deuce or a $20,000 royal.  If that's not fun, I don't know what is.The entire key to this is to have the discipline to keep to your budget.  If it's a bad day, accept it and keep playing single coin quarters.  If you make a little money, try a pot shot.  Now I know all this makes no sense to a math professor.  I only know it worked and it continues to work for me to this day.   Currently I do not use CS in my regular play, but I continue to use it in my pot shots.  I haven't hit a max coin $5 quad deuce or royal yet, but I am confident I will.  When I do I will post it on this website just like I did before.  I'm sure someone on this forum will accuse me of taking pictures of someone else's jackpot.  So be it.  When you think math is in control, it's hard to accept something that happens on the outside edge of your calculations.  I keep very detailed records of my play.  I have ever since I had to report $15,000 in W2Gs on my tax form back in 2008.  The facts are playing CS to limit my loses plus the wins from my pot shots put me ahead about $2,000 over a two year period.   Photos of my wins were posted to this website.  I still have them on my computer.The question is "Will this ever happen again and can someone else do it?"  I don't know the answer to that.  I always said I was lucky.   The promise of Mr. Dancer's strategy is that math can make you a winner.    Math can't do anything but predict what might happen.    Back in 2000, Mr. Dancer and his wife hit an unbelievable lucky streak.  Did their skill and intellect have anything to do with a million dollars in royals?   If I hit a $20,000 royal using CS, is that any less skillful?  The truth is VP is gambling and anything can and will happen.   In my opinion, insinuating that any one or any thing can change what comes out of that machine short or long term is marketing not actual fact.I am happy to give Mr. Dancer credit for what I consider to be his best work.  He claims to have made a long term profit from VP over a twenty year period  If that's true, it's a monumental feat.  I also think he is probably the world's most informed expert on the casino comp system.  Finally, as a businessman I admire his business savvy.  He has put together a profit machine that no one else has ever done.  Anyone who can get casinos and players to pay him at the same time is genius. 

[onemoretry]

[quote=onemoretry]As I recall, you did not hesitate at all to mention your successes in
the considerable harangue that accompanied CS. You may not have said:
"You can do it, too", but there was a very strong inference that max
coin jackpots were just around the corner.This is exactly the problem I have with Bob Dancer's marketing.   [/QUOTE] But, it's OK if you do it?

[onemoretry]

When you play CS quarters all day, you lose very little money and you win bigger when you hit a max coin jackpot.  If you said "If you hit a max coin jackpot", rather than "when", this statement would be a bit more palatable.

Suggesting that a max coin jackpot is inevitable when a relatively small number of hands are being played at max coin is simply wrong.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry]Suggesting that a max coin jackpot is inevitable when a relatively
small number of hands are being played at max coin is simply wrong.[/quote]This is not true.  The odds of hitting a max coin jackpot are the same on each and every hand played.   You could do it 50 times in a row.   I agree it's not likely, but as long as the possibility exists the excitement remains.  The cheapest way to play negative VP games is single coin nickels all the time.  There is no excitement in that which negates the entire reason for playing.You are missing the point of CS.  It's not a long term winning strategy.  It's a change to a game that allows a player to play longer with his/her money while retaining the possibility of a max coin jackpot.   If you are interested in making a profit at all cost, get yourself a Dancer sized bankroll, fly out to Vegas, sit next to Bob and do exactly what he does.  What happen next is up to the RNG.