Playing Bad VP Games?

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Eduardo]Are you suggesting casinos have machines on the floor that they don't actually want people to play?[/quote]As crazy as it seems, Yes.  Some players believe video poker is the only beatable casino game left.   This idea comes from the sellers of software, books, strategy cards, Etc. who are all pushing this idea to sell more of their products.  Casinos don't want players to play 99% games, they want players to play 96% or less games or they want to force you to play at high denominations so you bet bigger and lose more overall.  Most casinos outside of Nevada have a few better VP machines on the floor to make the odds hunters happy.  Inevitably when you do find a better VP game, there is something negative that comes with playing it.  Either it's in poor condition, it's in a difficult location or there is something that makes playing it for long difficult.  This pattern seems to repeat all over the country.  For example, at the Ameristar casino in Black Hawk CO, all the quarter 98.9% VP machines are standup and they are all behind the craps tables.  It's so noisy and dark back there you can't concentrate.   The 96% games are sit down machines and are all over the casino with plenty of lighting.  In Gulf Port MS, the only 9/6 Jacks or Better game that I know of is at the Island View Bar.  The bar has six of these machines.  The angle you have to contort yourself into just to play them is painful.   Still, you need to get there early because the seats fill up fast.  If you are lucky enough to get a seat, you must put up with the bar tender asking you if you want a drink every 5 minutes.  If you drink as much as he wants you to, you will fall off the stool and forget about winning anything.   Recently, the Hollywood Florida Hard Rock removed 4 out of six quarter 98.9% VP machines and replaced them with triple play 96% games.  With only two 98.9% machines left. players are camping on them.  To play better VP games I have put up with dripping air conditioners, noisy casino employees, smoke so thick you could cut it with a knife and crazy people cussing so loud I apologized to the women sitting with me.   Playing VP is getting to the point where it's not worth the trouble.Time after time in casino after casino, the buttons on the best VP games are all in such poor condition you have to push the screens to play and the screens are bad too.  The "experts" are driving the demand for better VP odds.   Casinos are pacifying VP players by having a few token machines with decent odds, then handicapping them to make up for the better odds and perceived player skill.   How else can you explain this?

[Eduardo]

I don't know, maybe those machines get more play and are wearing down faster, and the casinos lack a good maintenance plan?I don't know. I don't understand the concept you are describing of "pacifying" advantage players with a few good machines then making it a terrible experience. The players you are talking about are the ones who will simply leave because there aren't better machines with the same pay tables. So "pacifying" them doesn't help if they lose a customer any way. I see no advantage to the casino in doing that. They might as well put in machines that other players would actually play and forget about the advantage players completely. Pissing off customers doesn't seem like a good business strategy.Or maybe people who do look for these pay tables are the players who are willing to put up with a bad machine, so the broken ones get set with better pay tables and swapped on the floor to still have some "use" left in them.I can't say if you are right or wrong. I'm sure bad business decisions get made from time to time.I think it has more to do with the cost of maintaining the machines vs the amount of play they get any way despite being run down.Whatever the reason, these ill kept machines do drive me crazy and I leave a place if the only machine I want to play is in terrible shape. Especially in Vegas there are better options so it's not worth wasting your time.

[Tedlark]

I'd like to hear more about the "subtle ways" casinos are rigging video poker machines?

[Eduardo]

I'd like to hear more about the "subtle ways" casinos are rigging video poker machines?First they buy the machine a few drinks, then they rub the buttons a little to see how it responds.

[olds442jetaway]

The biggest issue I see with vp is poor maintenance. Many of the 9/6 machines at Mohegan sun are located in bar areas which are almost always in poor button conditions due to drinks being spilled on them. Many others are in the smoking areas. The ones in non smoking are in a high traffic area where casino employees are constantly walking back and forth to their break room. The most recent problem I have been noticing is the held display being displayed when you press the button over the card you want to keep, but then is disappears as you hit the deal button. I have lost 4 of a kinds because of this already. Luckily no Royals or quad deuces lost yet. The only way around this on some machines is to leave it or slow down your play. It is very frustrating. Any and all of the vp machines coming in now are of the 96-97 percent variety. The ones mentioned above in the 99 range are ancient and as they die, they are not being replaced. Of course at least at Mohegan Sun, they as of 2011 have discontinued the points you can spend on the 99 machines and those only earn tier points. I used to have an average of 9k points that I could spend on file all the time, but now have less than 500. Of course comps for vp players are much lower too. Lately, out of frustration with all of this and the continued lack of Royals showing up on schedule, I have been playing nickel machines for fun and find the fun level is just as good there. Of course in a few months gone will by me 24/7 comp rooms, food, shows etc. I think the higher management is making a big mistake treating vp players this way. Why they would want to lose the 40k to 100k per year I have been giving them for several years now is beyond me.

[case]

Phil....what the hell are you talking about. You seem to just be on a mission to discredit those who take VP serious and understand the game. In your "perverted" way you are now trying to tell us slots are better than VP.

I know you are getting old but damn Phil the past few months you have just plain lost it. Your hate for Dancer has you taking a jab at him in every post WITHOUT saying his name.

I used to just let you spew your nonsense to the masses and just shake my head. But lately you have taken it to another level. I believe even the new VP players are leaving you side.

You will say something good about VP and math and them in the next sentence put it down. Do you even read what you write?

Just give it up for awhile as you have become a broken record with nothing to say.

And just for the record VP can be beat and does get beat but not by players like you. Now you will come back and say no one can win outside of Vegas.....and then in the next post you will say people who sell books in Vegas make it seem like you can beat VP but no one can.

Give it up....PLEASE

[olds442jetaway]

     I have to agree that vp can be beat, but it takes discipline beyond what I have. Nearly every session I am up at some point. VP is like a big sine curve tilted slightly down. Get out at the peaks and most sessions you imo opinion will be ahead. Bank rates being less than one percent now for most CDs....hmmm...When I think about a 1000 bankroll I bring with me....and being ten bucks ahead or one percent....I can't remember the last time that didn't happen. But who is happy with ten bucks. Certainly not I and not 99.99999 of the vp players out there and that's why the casinos make the money they do and will never have clocks we can just look up at and say, time to go.

[FAA]

Lately, out of frustration with all of this and the continued lack of
Royals showing up on schedule, I have been playing nickel machines for
fun and find the fun level is just as good there. Of course in a few
months gone will be 24/7 comp rooms, food, shows etc. Management is making a big mistake.
Why they would want to lose the 40k to 100k per year I have been giving
them for several years now is beyond me.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Indeed. You have been generous to a fault and will soon be slapped in the face for your trouble. No good deed goes unpunished. I just retreated to quarter 9/6 JOB out of frustration with my own Royal free era. Much less stressful, and I only burned $60 in an hour. I guess this will be my morning ritual from now on. Thanks for nothing, you tight SOBs.

[FAA]

When I think about a $1000 bankroll I bring and being ten
bucks ahead or one percent, I can't remember the last time that didn't
happen. But who is happy with ten bucks. Certainly not 99.99999 of vp players and that's why the casinos make the
money they do and will never have clocks.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'm always up $10 each trip, with 10-15% of your bankroll. But who wants $10? So here comes the bust and subsequent ATM trip. I'd be better off rolling my torso down the beach until I hit the ocean. They can drag me to the nearby hospital for observation to kill some more time, then I can head home safely in the black.

[FloridaPhil]

Recreational Video Poker is what this forum is about.  Recreation is
about getting the most entertainment for your money.  Poorly maintained
machines are not entertaining.  Neither is thick smoke, loud noises or
nasty foul mouthed people.  For some reason casinos are moving the best VP machines
to the worst possible locations.  They are being replaced with new slots
and quirky games with terrible odds.  I am not alone in my
observations.  When I pick a VP game to play I want a well maintained machine in a nice
environment.  I want the best odds I can find, but I will not be
uncomfortable just to play them.  I know I can hit a royal on a 6/5
Bonus Poker game just as easily as an 8/5 game.  I don't play 6/5 Bonus
poker, but I would if I had to.I never said VP can't be beat.  I said the odds of a player doing it are minuscule.  I believe the major determining factor in whether this happens is luck, not skill.  Picking the best games and playing them skillfully lets you play more hands with the same money.  It never guarantees you will make a profit.As far as Mr. Dancer goes, I believe he is a good businessman and I'm sure he knows more about VP than anyone on this planet.  He is in the business of selling information.  We see this all the time in the real estate business.  Real estate is tough and a lot of hard work.  It is much easier to sell books and real estate strategy programs than sell property.  The next time you see a millionaire on TV standing in front of his private jet telling you how he can make you rich flipping houses, ask yourself why he is doing this?I am not on some mission to destroy VP or discredit anyone or anything.  I am making observations about what happens when I play VP and how I react to the VP world in general.  If this offends someone because all they want to hear is how great everything is, I'm sorry.