my findings

[DaBurglar]

Hey Phil, and I mean this question with utmost serious focus and intent, even though it may seem simplistic and naive, but why can't you just play max coin at nickel or dimes, thus controlling your losses via that methodology while still being able to benefit from max coin bets on royals etc....???

[FAA]

The
old Dan Paymar Optimal play strategy.  She always keeps two card non
deuce royal flush hands and goes for the royal or wild royal.  She
always holds three deuces and discards the other cards no matter what. She
sticks to DW exclusively, slow and deliberate, never
varies her denomination and never takes a pot shot or drifts off into
the HL room.  She also hits more royals and
way more quad deuces than she is entitled to.  This is understandable
because she goes for those hands when the computer would not. She
was very lucky in 2017.  Her bankroll grew $2K last year.  She does not try to engineer
wins.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------She does try to engineer the big wins, jackpots.Not that there's anything wrong with that. I walked past a dead seagull last week on Florida Avenue. I can't make it up. So much for my relaxing stroll.

[onemoretry]

.One important point.  He does not agree with CS or that changing denominations mid play can overcome negative odds.  I agree to disagree.
I would interpret that to mean you do think changing denominations mid play CAN overcome negative odds, i.e., gain an edge.

Yet, in a later post, you state that CS absolutely does NOT gain an edge.

Colour me confused!

[Jstark]

[QUOTE=FloridaPhil]
.One important point.  He does not agree with CS or that changing denominations mid play can overcome negative odds.  I agree to disagree.
I would interpret that to mean you do think changing denominations mid play CAN overcome negative odds, i.e., gain an edge.

Yet, in a later post, you state that CS absolutely does NOT gain an edge.

Colour me confused![/QUOTE]
A 97% game on quarters is a 97% game on $5, all else being the same. Nothing anyone does will change this. You guys are no different than table games players and their voodoo worship stuff. I'm surprised VP manufacturers haven't created side bets for these games!

For those that prefer playing one credit, I suggest finding a one cent VP machine and minimum bet that.

[Tedlark]

I believe that several video poker games currently on casino floors have side bets already.

[FloridaPhil]

All great questions.  Here is the point that is being missed.The goal of CS has always been: To create an exciting Recreational Video Poker game that can be played "cheaper" and "longer" than flat betting max coins on negative VP games while retaining the possibility of a max coin jackpot.The goal of CS has never been to "gain an edge", "beat the game" or "make a profit".  I find playing with CS more entertaining and a much better value for my entertainment dollars than traditional flat betting.  The question about playing max coins nickels as an alternative to CS is a good question.  Most nickle VP games have the odds reduced even further than quarter games.   In many cases you can gain better odds by playing single coin VP at a higher denomination than max coins at a lower denomination.  An example currently exists at the Hollywood Hard Rock.  The max coin quarter DW odds are 96.77% at $1.25 a hand.   The single coin DW dollar odds are 98.9% max coins and 97.686% single coin at $1.00 a hand.  This makes playing single coin dollars a better game in that casino than playing max coin quarters.  This is a very common situation in today's US casinos.What hangs up most players about CS is the royal flush.  The way the game is normally structured the royal is the carrot you are chasing.   This is done intentionally by game makers as a way to get players to risk more money.   More "coin in" equals more profit for the casino.  Some players never hit one.  Playing CS changes the game significantly.  It makes hitting minor more frequent max coin jackpots more significant than rare royals.My favorite way to play CS is with dollars.  I play one dollar a hand instead of 5 quarters.  This alone saves me 25 cents each time I hit the button.  This also reduces the quad deuce jackpot from $250 to $200 and a royal from $4,000 to $250.  I would never play max coin dollar VP for long as the cost is too high.  I think of a single coin dollar royal flush as just another max coin quarter quad deuce.  If I hit one at max coins for $4,000 and I have, It's a huge windfall.A royal in deuces wild happens on average every 45,000 hands.  A quad deuce happens once every 5,000 hands or 9 times more frequent.  When playing dollar CS, a max coin dollar quad deuce pays the same $1,000 as a max coin quarter royal only you have 9 times more chances of hitting one at max coins.  Personally, I would much rather hit 4 max coin dollar quad deuce hands at $1,000 each than one max coin dollar royal for $4,000.  NO W2G and NO taxes!!  CS changes the game significantly.  It makes it similar to games like Super Times Pay where a bonus is given at random only it's much cheaper to play.  If you think of CS in this way you may understand it better.  You also may not choose to play my way.  We are all different and we all want different things from our entertainment.Back when positive VP was common, Bob Dancer created a math based strategy that made sense.  He had the guts to put his money where his mouth is and launched a great career in VP.   I applaud him for that and all the effort he has put into promoting the game over the years.  Times have changed.  VP is not the game it once was. For most of us this calls for different strategies and a different way of looking at the game.  If we continue to play like it's the year 2,000 we will continue to be at the mercy of ever declining odds.If you are with me so far and have an interest in trying CS, I will open another thread to explain the basics.  This will make it easier for members to find.  You can test drive it on this website for free.  If you don't like it for any reason, don't use it.

[Jstark]

Phil said:

"The goal of CS has always been: 

To create an exciting Recreational Video Poker game that can be played "cheaper" and "longer" than flat betting max coins on negative VP games while retaining the possibility of a max coin jackpot."

This is why I suggested playing the cheapest possible denomination (preferably 1 cent) and single coining it.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Jstark]This is why I suggested playing the cheapest possible denomination (preferably 1 cent) and single coining it.
[/quote]That would actually be the second cheapest way to play negative VP.  The cheapest way is to play on this website for free. While entertaining, playing on this website isn't gambling unless there is something at risk.   Few people would consider playing a penny a hand as gambling.   What I want from a gambling game is a relatively low cost to play, a better than 1 in 40,000 chance of hitting a significant jackpot and low variance so I can play longer without losing a lot of money.   A game such as that does not fit into the business plan of a casino.  They need players to risk a lot, lose a lot and be paid infrequently.  They want players to think the "Grand Jackpot" shown at the top of the machine is coming on the next hand as they continue to feed the machine from their emptying wallets. Winning using CS will not make anyone rich or fund a "nice lifestyle".  However, coming close to breaking even is not that difficult.   It allows a player to play 90% of their hands at 1/5th the cost.  The variance is low because hitting a minor max coin jackpot recovers your losses often  and the grand jackpot still exists.   All it takes is the ability to look on short coin jackpots as just another win and not the ultimate prize.If you use traditional VP strategy on a 96.77% video poker game and play max coin quarters, you will pay the house at least 3.23% of your "coin in" for the privilege of playing there.  If you play max coin quarters, the most you can win on any one hand is $250 for a quad deuce or $1,000 for a 1 in 45,000 royal flush.   When you play CS dollars at our casinos you earn 1% better odds 90% of the time and over 2% better odds on 10% of your hands.  The most you can win on any one hand jumps to $4,0000.    All of this without the investment of playing max coin dollars all the time.

[Eduardo]

Roughly how many hands are you playing at the higher max bet, what qualifies as a "minor max coin jackpot" and about how great are the low coin losses you are trying to recover?" We can probably calculate just how frequently you will recover your low coin losses (and how often you will lose more).

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Eduardo]Roughly how many hands are you playing at the higher max bet, what
qualifies as a "minor max coin jackpot" and about how great are the low
coin losses you are trying to recover?" [/quote]I am about to start a new "Basics of CS" post, but I will answer your question first.  In deuces wild around 30-40% of the hands make the bell ring.    The CS betting system says to bet max coins on all hands following every 4 coin win and return to single coin after each non winning hand.    Critics have said this is using past results to predict future results.  That never works.  What's gone is gone and every hand is a new hand.   This betting scheme is only a convenient way to keep track of when to increase and decrease your bet.   Some players like Olds444jetaway count hands to essentially do the same thing.  I can't be bothered with counting hands, so I use a 4 coin win to time making my larger bet.  The fact that you won 4 coins on the last hand has absolutely nothing to do with winning or losing your next hand.I do not know what the average frequency of 4 coin or above winning hands is when playing single coin single line deuces wild.   I believe my estimate of 10% is about right based on my experience.  If you can provide a better answer, I would love to see it.  To win a "minor max coin jackpot" you must do so following a 4 coin winning hand.   A straight flush pays 45 coins, a 5-of-a-kind pays 75 coins and a wild royal pays 125 coins.  If you hit a quad deuce or a royal after a 4 coin winning hand, you are paid one of the two biggest jackpots in CS.When you are playing single coin the counter goes down one coin at a time, so your money lasts a long time.  When you win 4 coins or more switch to max coins and lose the next hand, you lose 5 coins.  You keep all wins over 5 coins.  It is very common to go down 50-70 coins, hit a max coin straight flush and recover 45 coins or a 5-of-a-kind for 75 coins.  One of the easiest and best hands to hit in CS is a max coin wild royal.  A 125 coin win is substantial when you are only betting one coin a hand. When flat betting deuces wild with max coins, unless you hit at least one quad deuce or royal a day you are going to lose big. I have had many days playing CS when wild royals alone kept me ahead of the game.  All of this can be tested on this website for free.  There is nothing to buy and no money to lose.   Don't try it for 5 minutes, say it doesn't work and give up.  Nothing can keep you from having a bad day once in a while.  You will feel the excitement every time you hit the max coin button.  You will see how much longer your money lasts and you may even hit a big jackpot and wish you had been playing with real money.   Good Luck.