CS Basics

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Steve196ai]I'm sick of playing for quarters I want the money. Why play 4hrs with
500 when you can take a pot shot with 1$ or higher. Being king of
quarters is not fun anymore.[/quote]HistoryCS was originally developed as a way to play longer and save money when playing seriously negative VP games on 3-4 day or week long gambling junkets.   I encountered these in cruise ship casinos and in Biloxi where the casino was all too eager to let me stay overnight for free.  Instead of feeding max coin quarters into 96% negative VP games, I found it was cheaper to play single coin quarters over the same period of time.  Math proved this out.  Unfortunately, playing single coin quarters removes much of the fun from VP.  If there is no decent prize, there is no fun in playing.I tried switching denominations and taking pot shots, but the problem always was the timing of the switch.   One day I read an article on the Internet about a new strategy called "Frugal Video Poker".   This scheme involved starting out at single coin and increasing your bet one coin for each coin won on the previous hand.   In other words, if you won one coin you bet two on the next hand all the way up to five coins.  You would return to one coin after any losing hand.   I tried it and it had possibilities, but you were always using up your profits.    Eventually, I came across the idea of only increasing my bet if I won 4 coins or more.This allowed me to keep all 2-3 coin wins and keep any coins won over 5 coins total.   For example, if I hit a straight flush for 40 coins, I reinvested 5 coins on the next hand leaving me with a 35 coin profit.  The first time I tried it in Biloxi it reduced my cost to play VP for three days from $1,200 to $200, a $1,000 saving!   I used it at my home casinos in Florida and on vacations.   On one of my VP vacations in Black Hawk Colorado, I hit a max coin quarter royal using CS.  I remember watching the cards come up and the counter go to $1,000.   Nice!Eventually I tired of quarter play, so I tried CS with dollars.   Same great results.  I hit quite few short coin royals along the way, but my reduced cost to play always kept my loses under control.   My first $4,000 CS dollar royal flush came at the Tampa Hard Rock.  I also tried CS on $5 VP machines.  While I have yet to hit a max coin quad deuce for $5K, I have hit four $1,000 $5 single coin quad deuces so far.Since 2008 I have kept tedious detailed records of my gambling for the IRS.  In 2008, I won $13,000 in one day playing dollar 7/5 jacks or Better.  The W2Gs are hanging on my wall in my office.  For nearly two years I posted nearly $17,000 in photos of my CS wins on this website.  I was immediately accused of recommending a "dangerous" strategy.  Some even accused me of taking photos of other players jackpots and posting them as my own.CS will not make you rich!  I'm not even sure what "rich" is.    I started a business machines service company fifty years ago when I was 20.  It eventually morphed into a successful computer technologies company.  I sold the software division to a group of businessmen backed by a large investment firm in1996.  My son took the services company over and still operates it today in Miami.  He lives a very nice lifestyle.I could never spend all my money.   I live a frugal lifestyle with my wife of 52 years and a West Highland Terrier name Katie.  Gambling is not my life, it's my hobby.  I hate losing money with a passion.  I see no reason to withdraw thousands of dollars out of my bank account to be entertained.   I'm not afraid of taking risks, but I know when the odds are stacked against me.  CS lets me play cheap with the possibility of winning big.   I don't make money playing video poker, but I don't lose much either.  All I want from video poker is a nice day with my wife playing a fun game we both enjoy.I know there are some members who are sitting in front of their computer waiting to post the usual insults, call me a liar and try to discourage others from playing my way.  Frankly, I don't care.  I enjoy this forum.  If I can help someone to save a little money and have more fun playing VP, I'm happy. 

[Tedlark]

Phil I have a question about your post and I'm only asking for the sake of clarification and not to demean you.

You stated that in 2008 you won $13,000.00 in one day playing 7/5 Jacks or Better.The question is this: were you employing or using your CS on that day?

[Eduardo]

I don't think anyone has a problem with CS as a strategy and they most certainly don't have a problem with you using it. It's your money, play however you want!The only problem has always been any indication that it can be a winning strategy. I highlighted several posts by you (which you ignored) that some might think imply that, as follows:[quote]CS is not about mathematical formulas and odds calculations.  It's about
keeping your losses low so you can spend your lucky hands instead of
giving them back.[/quote]There is nothing that prevents you from
giving your big hands back, or losing MORE than those big hands before
you even hit one. If you agree that it's a losing strategy, how can you
hope to SPEND your lucky hands instead of giving them back?[quote]CS cuts the investment required on the 90% of the hands you play at
single coin so you can keep 100% of the max coin premium hands.
[/quote]Same story. You only keep 100% of your premium hands if you paid nothing to get them and you quit forever.[quote] To me all wins are good as long as the net is positive and stays that way.[/quote]Again, you are talking about winning here, on a losing game. Your net will NOT stay positive!I
think your strategy is fine for what you intend to do with it. You just have to be careful that you
aren't misleading people to think they can win with this strategy. The above statements seem to imply you
are going to end up keeping your winnings instead of playing them back in.New2VP also had the following insight that is worth noting:

Math can tell those who know how to listen to it the
following.  If you only play max coins 15% of the time, it will take
667% as long between the big hits that will bring you fame and fortune. 
Oh, and by the way, before you spend that hard earned cash, be prepared
that the price of how much you will pay waiting between
big hits will be greater than if you just played max coin all along.  To
be fair, the swings are definitely greater when playing max coin.  But
when you reduce the downside, you also reduce the upside.But
that is just what will happen on average.  Your results may be better
... especially if you believe you are special or, more importantly, you
wake up today on the good side of the rng. That's all. Keep playing it all you want. Don't expect people to stop making informed statements about it when you start another topic explaining it. I am actually a fan of upping my bet and taking "potshots" at times which isn't too different. So don't think I'm mad at the strategy. I just want people to understand what they can actually expect as results.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Tedlark]You stated that in 2008 you won $13,000.00 in one day playing 7/5 Jacks
or Better.The question is this: were you employing or using your CS on
that day?
[/quote]No.  That's an interesting story.  I was reading Million Dollar Video Poker at the time.  I had been playing VP for a few years and wanted to be a better player.  I read in the book where Bob Dancer playing Jacks or Better made a million dollars.  I had been playing Double Double Bonus and was discouraged with my results.   We booked three days at the Beau Rivage in Biloxi MS. I had to pay for my room back then.   I didn't understand negative odds at the time.  I thought that the low variance of Jacks or Better would let me play all day without losing too much.   We got to the casino about 3:00 PM.  I went to the back by the poker room and started playing max coin Jacks at the dollar level.  Within 30 minutes I hit a $4,000 royal flush.  The lady paid me and I jokingly told her to hang around because I was going to hit another one soon.  Sure enough, I hit my second $4,000 royal soon after.  I was up $8,000 at that point.  We moved over to the Golden Nugget Casino.  I didn't want to give the money back, so I switched to max coin quarters.  In 10 minutes I hit my third royal for $1,000.  This was getting crazy, but I switched back to dollar Jacks anyway.  I hit my forth royal for another $4,000 a little while later.  My wife and I went back to the Beau Rivage with $13,000 in cash in our pockets.  It scared me to death as I was afraid of being robbed.   I put the money in the safe and went downstairs to play some more.  I switched to DDB and promptly hit 4 aces.  My wife went into the high limit room and ran a $100 bill up to $1,500 bucks in no time.  We got home with about $14K in profit.  My wife found another $1,500 in her coat pocket that she had forgotten about.After that the Beau Rivage started offering to fly us back for free, put us up in a beautiful end suite and gave us all the free food vouchers we could use.  Over the next 6 months we gave back all the money we had won playing max coin Jacks or Better.  Eventually, the Beau got back double our winnings.    The lesson I learned was it's not how much you win, it's how much you keep.  That started me on the path to CS.  When you play negative VP games, controlling losses are more important than winning.  You can win all the jackpots in the world.    If the odds are against you, you will give it back plus some.  I'm sure I am not the only one to learn that lesson.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Eduardo]Keep playing it all you want. Don't expect people to stop
making informed statements about it when you start another topic
explaining it. I am actually a fan of upping my bet and taking
"potshots" at times which isn't too different. So don't think I'm mad at
the strategy. I just want people to understand what they can actually
expect as results.[/quote]Eduardo.  Thank you for your comments.  I think you are one of the more understanding and thoughtful members here.I never intended CS to be a profit making strategy.   As stated above, all I wanted it to do was let me enjoy VP without the high cost.   When you walk up to a $5 video poker machine, put in one $20 bill, play single coin and hit a $1,000 quad deuce it adds to your bankroll.  During my winning two years with CS, I did this three separate times.  Another time, I was playing CS quarters, was having a great day and switched to CS dollars.  Ten minutes later I was dealt a max coin $4,000 royal flush.  Will this ever happen to me again?  I don't know.I know this.  If you play quarter VP, the most you can win in one hand is $1,000 for a royal flush.   You can play $1 and $5 games with CS and have a possible chance at a $20,000 royal.   Which one would you like to win?I am very conservative when it comes to the amount of money I am willing to put at risk.  I never play more than $20 at a time and I cash out every win over $50.  I never keep feeding money into a video poker machine waiting for math or anything else to turn me into a winner.  When I have turned all my money for the day into white tickets, I'm gone.There is no math that can guarantee anything in VP.   The odds might be a million to one, but anything can still happen.  That's what playing VP is all about.  As long as the dream exists, players will play the game.  As long as a player understands the odds are against them, they can determine what risks they are willing to take.

[Eduardo]

That's wonderful. I think that early max coin royal flush is likely to blame for your enthusiasm.If a royal happens every 40,000 hands on average, then a max coin royal playing CS will happen closer to 1 in 266,000 hands. You got lucky and you're most likely going to hit many one coin royals (an average of 6) while you wait for the next max bet one. Those 1 coin royals are the main thing that makes CS unpalatable to me personally.I know... there are other "premium" hands that are rewarding too. You somehow are okay with completely overlooking royal flushes because they are rare. But the other "premium" hands are also going to happen very infrequently. Most of your premium hands will be hit on single coin bets, simply because you are spending the most time there.

[FloridaPhil]

In a normal day's play, I usually have about a 50/50 chance of hitting at least one single coin quad deuce for $200.  Which is only $50 less than a max coin quarter quad deuce.   If I do hit a single coin royal, I don't cry about it.  It pays the same as a max coin quarter quad deuce ($250), so that's the way I feel about it.  Any major max coin jackpot is gravy.    Wild royals for $125 pay half of a max coin quarter quad deuce, so hitting two of those is like another quad deuce.  Max coin five-of-a-kinds for $75 and $45 straight flushes are pretty common.  Max coin dollar quad deuces and royals are rare.  I only expect to hit a few of them a year.  A 98.9% deuce wild game has a pretty low variance as well.All in all, I find playing dollar CS very entertaining.  The cost to play is much lower for me than banging away with max quarters on a 96.77% game.  I just can't seem to get anywhere on those machines.  Funny, my wife seems to do well on any deuces wild game no matter what the odds.  Like I said, she plays slow and walks out if things don't go her way.  She's happy to stick with quarters all day.  It bores the heck out of me.

[Eduardo]

[quote] My wife found another $1,500 in her coat pocket that she had forgotten about.[/quote][quote]my wife does well on any game no matter what the odds. [/quote]It sounds like your strategy should be: 1) Let your wife play while you do something else2) Check her coat pockets at the end of the day

[FloridaPhil]

For sure.  It's not easy to play CS accurately.  When you switch from single coin to max coins the hand strategy changes. You must learn to accept all wins as a good thing and not cry over short coin jackpots.  Most people couldn't get through the first royal without committing suicide.    The math says playing a 98.9% game one coin at a time is better than playing a 96.77% game with max coins.  That is some help.  Getting 5 extra coins for a wild royal and 5-of-a-kind is nice.When we play at casinos that offer 98.9% quarter deuces wild or better, I do not play CS.  I think 1% is enough of  a house edge.  The comps are usually worth that much.  Anything over that is excessive in my opinion.What is annoying are a few of the most vocal members of this forum who play in Vegas.  They don't know what it's like to be forced to play 96% VP games or stay home.  Millions of VP players don't have the advantage of playing full pay games, earning cash back and great comps.   They should try putting themselves in our shoes before they attack what they don't know.    A little more understanding would go a long way.  We are not kidding ourselves into believing we can overcome negative odds long term.  We are trying to do the best with what we have.

[wilcoxfun]

Eduardo that was funny but true suggestion let the wife play and you check the pockets! Thanks for the information. Enjoyed the stories.