The World of Negative VP

[stevel96a1]

i have to side with Phil. hunting UX left overs is equal to finding tickets with pennys on them and ripped up. advantage play means to me to make a living or rack in a cool mil like Bob did he did not make a mil playing leftovers on UX now did he?give Phil an example that beats philadelphia's minimums wage by x2 and Phil will be happy with that answer (or atleast i will be) because finding pennys on the ground or leftover UX machines is not one of them

[FloridaPhil]

I didn't ask for a million dollar opportunity.  I asked for a single long term positive Florida VP game.  If you play VP long enough you will have your share of big wins.   If you are play big enough, those wins can last you a long time.  If you write a book about it, your wins could become legend.I don't want this forum to be about legends.  I want it to be about playing real VP games that an average player can play.   As the inventory of positive VP game opportunity shrinks, advantage play becomes less profitable.   VP math hasn't changed.  The casinos changed the games and the comps to compensate for the increased skill and knowledge of the players.Average players can use Advantage Play Strategy to reduce the cost of playing VP.  For most players the "profit" is gone and replaced with a "discount".  Knowing the odds before you play is an advantage.  Knowing the computer correct hands is as well.  Taking advantage of comps and incentives is a bonus that adds to your side of the ledger.  If in the end you pay a little to enjoy VP, I think that's a win.The basic question that is being asked here is this, "Is it worthwhile for the average forum member to play large denomination VP games so they can profit from positive opportunities?"   So far the answer is "No".

[Jstark]

i have to side with Phil. hunting UX left overs is equal to finding tickets with pennys on them and ripped up. advantage play means to me to make a living or rack in a cool mil like Bob did he did not make a mil playing leftovers on UX now did he?give Phil an example that beats philadelphia's minimums wage by x2 and Phil will be happy with that answer (or atleast i will be) because finding pennys on the ground or leftover UX machines is not one of them
There are people making over $100,000 a year strictly doing the above. Now obviously they have locations with more than one casino. Enough said! Advantage play isn't about how much you make. It's only about having an edge over the game.

[FloridaPhil]

There are also people making $1,000,000 a year selling Real Estate flipping books and videos.   I was a called to be a potential expert witness in one of those cases.  Unfortunately for the defendants, the judge didn't buy their marketing either.Let's get back to Florida VP which is the purpose of this exercise.   Last Friday I went to the Tampa Hard Rock.  I looked for Ultimate X games and found a few.  I didn't see any million dollar opportunities or any that I considered better than the 98% games available throughout the rest of the casino.  If I had found one with a big multiplier, I suppose I may have profited from it once.  One down, now what?  The Ultimate X odds in Tampa are not near positive, so I would be right back where I started.

[Tedlark]

Has Bob D. specifically mentioned UX as being a special play in Florida? I do not know, just asking. And just for the sake of clarity I do not believe Phil was originally asking for proof of a long term positive Florida VP game but rather, he was seeking a positive VP game in Florida. Phil may have changed that down the road after someone else offered proof of one.

[FloridaPhil]

Bob has consistently said I have long term positive VP opportunities available in Florida, but I choose not to play them.  Cherry picking leftover Ultimate X multipliers is a not long term positive opportunity.  It's might be good for one hand, then what? Bob should be more specific when he makes his statements.   Years ago players accepted his claims without reservation.  Today, players can see for themselves how narrow the window of opportunity is.  How many players consistently have long term positive VP opportunities available to them?  How many players can play big enough to last through the inevitable downturns?  How many players can play perfectly forever?  How many players have the time to attend drawings and promotions?  Serious long term profit  from Advantage Play strategy is only possible if all these things happen and you can take act on them.When playing the majority of today's VP games, playing bigger means losing bigger.  You don't have to be a genius to figure that out.  If you don't care, fine.   I do.

[Carcounter]

jstark, I sincerely doubt that people are making a 100k a year living off of vulturing Ultimate X, but even if that was possible, it is way too hard and too much work for most of us. Most people with that kind of intelligence and discipline could make more money doing something less time consuming and stressful. I have seen some ultimate x machines disappear and be replaced with penny slots. When they are gone, so is this special play.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=carcounter]I have seen some ultimate x machines disappear and be replaced with penny slots. When they are gone, so is this special play.[/quote]This is what I have been saying all along.  When all the positive VP games are gone, what will Advantage Play strategy get you?  That's where we currently are in Florida.   It will stop yielding a profit, but it will still get you a "discount".   Can playing VP bigger make a negative game positive?   Let's take penny slots for example.  If I can play a 68 cent slot for $6.68 a hand, will I do better long term?   No, I will just lose 10 times more.   Same result with today's VP games.  Casinos will always have VP.  The odds will continue to be reduced until the casino's profit from VP is equal to the penny slot that they can replace it with.  This is a business decision on the casino's part, not a conspiracy.To make up the difference, the comps must have value.   In Florida they aren't valuable enough to justify the investment.  I am always being accused of ignoring math.  I don't.  My math says playing VP in Florida is better played smaller not bigger.   Do the math where you play and see for yourself.

[Jstark]

jstark, I sincerely doubt that people are making a 100k a year living off of vulturing Ultimate X, but even if that was possible, it is way too hard and too much work for most of us. Most people with that kind of intelligence and discipline could make more money doing something less time consuming and stressful. I have seen some ultimate x machines disappear and be replaced with penny slots. When they are gone, so is this special play.
Yes there are people doing it. As for machines changing, that happens all the time with any game, slots, VP, even table games.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=jstark]Yes there are people doing it.[/quote]I have a question?  If a person hangs around the Ultimate X machines all day waiting for someone to get up, plays a hand or two, gets up and circles some more, will the casino allow this to continue?