The World of Negative VP

[case]

Advantage players don't give out the play.....that is up to you to find.

Remember there is more to a machine pay back than just the pay table on the machine.

Bob is too smart to hand out the play to a gambling forum.

Also no one claimed you could make a living on all advantage plays, they only claimed it IS an advantage.

[BobDancer]

Case closed.  The ball is in Mr. Dancer's court.  If he doesn't respond, I will assume he couldn't find any long term positive VP opportunities in Florida.  If he does, my check is already on my desk.
Now we are going from positive play in Florida to     1.   In one of his three favorite casinos     2.   no more than $5 per hand     3.   the right game (he likes DW, he doesn't like JoB)     4.   he wants it available whenever he wishes to play      5.  Somehow I now have to publicly out a good play or he says that proves that no such play exists. (P.S. There  are good plays in Florida. I certainly wouldn't out them on this forum.)       Who was it who called this guy a weasel? I personally wouldn't use that term, but I wouldn't blame anyone who did.

[New2vp]

Now we are going from positive play in Florida to     1.   In one of his three favorite casinos     2.   no more than $5 per hand     3.   the right game (he likes DW, he doesn't like JoB)     4.   he wants it available whenever he wishes to play      5.  Somehow I now have to publicly out a good play or he says that proves that no such play exists. (P.S. There  are good plays in Florida. I certainly wouldn't out them on this forum.)       Who was it who called this guy a weasel? I personally wouldn't use that term, but I wouldn't blame anyone who did.You left out another requirement:6.  You would have to be able to explain how it was an advantage play in terms that he could understand.  If you were so inclined, that alone could take more than $100 of your time.  Since he generally trusts only his experience, he would likely still make you wait until he played it himself and won more than $100 to confirm that it indeed was a bona fide play.I'm not certain if he would also require that it be accessible in single hand, without progressive meters or multipliers, in a game type that he has seen, played before and liked (as you stated), as well as being available in single coin while also allowing him to hold A-10 suited regardless of the other 3 dealt cards!  C'mon Bob, you're supposed to be the world expert here!!  Why can't you step up!?! Nevertheless, when he wakes up he will continue to ignore all reason and fall all over himself in declaring victory.  I wouldn't be surprised if he twisted this into a declaration of you owing him $100.  He may also chastise you for not knowing that he has changed his game of choice away from Deuces to lower variance games like JoB or Bonus Poker.  Why can you not keep up with the current game that "works for him"?  This move away from Deuces Wild evidently was prior to the time that I corrected the insights he offered in mid-February (though this would seem to provide evidence that he still preferred Deuces Wild):

An inexperienced player may conclude you can play Jacks or Better longer
with the same money than you would playing Deuces Wild.  In reality, I
do not find this to be the case.  Quads are very rare hands.  They have a
bad habit of not appearing for long periods of time.  It is common to
go through $100 or more an hour playing Jacks if quad hands are on
hiatus.   In Deuces Wild, the small pay outs are less, but they
are more common.  Play $20 on both games at the same denomination and
you will see what I am talking about.  This tells me "variance" is
different than "average cost to play per hour".   Many Recreational
players judge a game by how long they can play it with the money they
have.Maybe you could use this new information in an upcoming column? No?
By the way, I used "weasel" as a verb, meaning "to behave evasively"
as in making an excuse to refuse to honor a commitment, rather than as a noun, meaning either a small, slippery mammal or a treacherous or
deceitful person.  I don't credit him as qualifying under either umbrella in the latter statement.

[FloridaPhil]

As usual, this thread has gone off the tracks.Here are the issues we are discussing here. 1. Mr. Dancer claims he lives a nice lifestyle by only playing video poker games where the expected return from the combination of odds, comps and incentives is over 100%.  I am not disputing that.2. Mr. Dancer has stated I have positive VP games available to me in Florida, but I refuse to play them.  I have asked him to provide me with an example of one positive long term VP opportunity.If in fact these games do exist in Florida (which has yet to be shown), I have the financial ability to play them.  After analysis, I would most likely decide not to play them because I believe the expected return is not worth the investment in my time and money.For me, it is a better financial decision to play VP small and invest big.  I am not in the video poker business.  My cash flow does not rely on book or software sales.  I do not have casinos flying me around asking for advice.   The fact that Mr Dancer has these advantages has nothing to do with my playing decisions. Mr. Dancer should concede that many players would be better off financially to play VP smaller than bigger.   He has stated many times that there are only a few people in the world that profit from VP as he does.   How many players can show a long term profit from VP... a dozen, hundreds, thousands?   How many try and fail... millions?   What good is a video poker strategy if you have to possess the mathematical genius of Albert Einstein, the discipline of Jesus Christ and the finances of Bill Gates to use it? My personal VP strategy is to invest my money rather than play with it.  I play VP for entertainment and I invest for profit.  That is a VP strategy anyone can use.

[Tedlark]

Bob D. has stated here in these forums on several occasions in the past that there are good plays in Florida and I don't put any fault on him for not giving them up here (I wouldn't either). If Phil wants to know where they are, find them.

It's almost as if Phil wants someone else to do the work but he wants to collect the paycheck.

Phil is back to asking Bob D. to concede that many players would be better off financially to play VP smaller than bigger. I do not recall Bob D. telling anyone what they should do with their money but Phil certainly is.

Now Phil states that he would most likely NOT play those good plays in Florida, even after he was given their location. Which to me, is another example of Phil again changing the rules of the game in mid-game.

I'm not on Bob D's side nor on Phil's side in this exchange, just an amused bystander.

[DaBurglar]

Ok Hypothetically, what would a good play in Florida actually look like?  I'm not saying you have to spell it out completely, but since, as far as I can tell, the people refusing to identify these so-called "good plays in Florida" rarely if ever actually play in Florida, do the next best thing and provide a clue or two to those neutral bystanders out there who would like to identify these good plays, where and when they pop up in Florida.I don't get the statement that "I certainly wouldn't identify such good plays, not on this site..."...??  Why not?  Isn't this site supposed to exist in order for the VP community to SHARE all that they know against the common foe (i.e. Casinos)?It sure seems that the Anti-Phil consortium of posters are going to great lengths to engage him, and engage him often and enthusiastically.   We all know Phil is passionate about his beliefs and thoughts......I don't agree with Phil all the time, but I like hearing from him, as I do with others.What PRECISELY has Phil advocated or said that really, truly is so egregious that it requires constant refutation and engagement?  What is he saying that is so anathema to the people who obviously devote their lives to VP?    And I thought this section of the forum was where Phil could post whatever he wants without causing a storm of "gahhh, BE GONE VP Heretic"-like posts?

[FAA]

the Anti-Phil consortium of posters are going to great lengths to engage him-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bait, in other words. What a mountain of babble. We need hiking or wading boots before even logging in.

[onemoretry]

]I don't get the statement that "I certainly wouldn't identify such good plays, not on this site..."...??  Why not?  Isn't this site supposed to exist in order for the VP community to SHARE all that they know against the common foe Did you bother to read Bob Dancer's May 1 post in the Are $5 games beatable thread?

As he indicated, in today;s VP climate, there is a lot more to evaluating a play than just running around the casino looking at pay tables. For that matter, even just scouting payables is much more difficult than it used to be, with the current multitude of game variations, etc.

On FP's recent trip to Borgata, for example, he was unable to find 9/6 JOB machines without help, and he never did find the machines offering a much better deuces wild variant than the one he and his wife played.

I do not understand why you think a person should put in all that effort to identify a superior play and then turn it over to another player to milk.

[FloridaPhil]

I just returned from a very enjoyable day trip at the Tampa Hard Rock.  My wife and I pooled our money and played all day for free.  That's a win as far as we are concerned.  As I suspected, no word yet of any positive VP games in Florida.Before anyone on this forum states that I have positive VP games available to me in Florida, they should be prepared to back it up.   You can side step the issue by saying I should steal Ultimate X leftover multipliers or say you won't tell us because it's some kind of state secret, but we will all know you don't have an answer.  Positive Video Poker games are very rare.  They do exist.   I have seen them myself in Vegas where the competition for customers is fierce.  There is no such competition at work here in Florida.  Our casinos don't need to give away the farm to get people to play here.  Smart Florida players play small, enjoy the casino experience and take what comes to them.  We lose some and we win some.   If they know what they are doing they can have all the free overnight stays they want at one of Florida's best resorts and eat and drink on the house.  They most likely won't make a profit, but they will lose less in a year than a $5 Vegas player can lose in a day.If you want to play $5 games in Florida, be my guest.  You will pay many times more than it costs us to play VP, but you may not care.   I am not writing these posts to convince any $5 players to play quarter VP.  I am writing them for someone who may think all $5 VP is profitable.   If I have not been convincing enough, you will have to learn the hard way.  I wish you luck.

[Tedlark]

Actually Phil IMO you are doing quite a job of trying to steer people to play lesser denomination games. I'm too tired tonight to do the research as to just how many times you've brought this up but it would easily be in the double digits. You then write that you don't care what people do with their money. If this were true then why would you politic for people to play lesser denomination games?

I do know that if I did a search of the ENTIRE forum for the word anathema the search would only return one single solitary result.