Battling the heat

[OTABILL]

[QUOTE=Eduardo] Huh? Have to say I'm in agreement with Phil on this one. These games are clearly both entertainment and part of a business.  I don't see how that's even in question. Everyone I know who has gone to a casino did it because they found it entertaining.

That the casinos have somehow convinced seemingly normal people that gambling is somehow entertainment is ,by far, their greatest achievement. It ranks right up there with convincing businesses that doing deals in topless joints is kool.
Can you imagine anyone going to Vegas fifty years ago to be entertained by the gambling?
It's as if a sheep farmer could get his flock to line up to be sheared every few weeks.[/QUOTE]

Almost everyone I know goes to a casino for fun and entertainment. My wife's response to the question was "Why else would I go to a casino. Not to make money although that would be good. It's to have a night out." That may not be how you view it but many folks do. The same with going to Vegas. Gambling is part of the enjoyment but so is the dining, shows and the total experience. And yes, I know folks who went to Vegas fifty years ago to be entertained by the gambling, shows, etc. As the idiom goes, one shoe does not fit all.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=OTABILL]As the idiom goes, one shoe does not fit all.[/quote]Of course.  My wife and I enjoy our trips to the casino.  We especially enjoy driving around the country on our VP road trips.  The casinos we visit welcome us with open arms.  We are given free rooms most everywhere we go.   We are treated as valued customers and they never ask us to play $5 games.  Our mail box is full of offers.  Many we take advantage of.   We don't complain because the games aren't positive and we have a good time despite the odds.   If you play the best games you can find as computer perfect as you are able, playing quarter VP is a bargain.  We don't make a profit from VP, but we don't lose much either.   I can't think of anything they could offer us to make it worthwhile to play any larger.

[Vman96]

Billy,  I am banned from the Strategy Forum and you are banned from the Recreational Forum.  Should we both be banned form the Stories Forum as well?  Perhaps both of us should be banned entirely?  Why don't we ban everyone from the forum except "Bob Dancer"?  I'm sure that would make him happy.  He could turn the entire forum into one huge infomercial and give away two books for the price of one.These discussions come about because players attack others.   Read Tedlark's first post in this thread and see how many times he mocks my name.  What would you say if he had written that about you?   Should webman ban him as well?If you don't want to read these kinds of posts, don't start them in the first place.


A lot of other people probably get tired as you often circle back to "Bob" in discussions. We get it, you really don't like how he discusses/promotes the game, especially when he discusses things like advantage play and making sound like it's straightforward and easy to do, when in reality, it's not. Some of the things he writes (mostly his general attitude toward "recreational players") bugs me too. But I don't constantly discuss this. I discuss Bob where he needs to be discussed.

Now I know many of your posts in this particular thread have been an effort to defend your positions on things. For example, you actually didn't bring up Bob in this thread until galeygoo did first. But there has been so much debate in this thread, it has taken away from the initial point of the thread. "Ted having a good night at Joliet."

And when a good amount of the forum debates your various positions strongly, do you think you're going to change other people's minds by talking about it even more?

I lay the math out in front of people whenever I can, and make things as clear as possible, but I don't think I've really changed any member's habits here too greatly from my contributions to this forum. If any member still thinks a casino is "out to get people", good paytable machines are "rigged", or whatever beliefs they have on how VP is run in the casinos they frequent in, I don't have enough breath or time to change their beliefs.

[FloridaPhil]

Fair enough.  

[onemoretry]

Phil Ivey, Doyle Brunson and Daniel Negraneau are all live poker players.   Live poker is not video poker. 
That is quite true. But, you previously referred to professional gamblers. not just a certain category of gamblers. Therefore, I did not feel it inappropriate to mention the names of some pretty successful gamblers, albeit some were not video poker players.

I agree with you that any form of professional gambling is a risky business, And I would not really like for a close relative of mine to get into it. But, I wouldn't throw a hairy fit if someone else said they wouldn't mind it if the person interested in being a professional gambler had the skills to succeed.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry]I agree with you that any form of professional gambling is a risky
business, And I would not really like for a close relative of mine to
get into it. But, I wouldn't throw a hairy fit if someone else said
they wouldn't mind it if the person interested in being a professional
gambler had the skills to succeed.
[/quote]Like I stated previously, I have no problem with professional gamblers.  What I object to is someone using their success as a professional gambler to sell products and services.  Especially when you are selling a strategy that promises to beat the casinos.   The odds of sucess as a professional gambler are very small.  That is something we can all agree upon.   If you are that successful, you shouldn't need to do anything except play video poker and go to the bank.Everyone is entitled to make a living.   When the way you make your living has the potential to hurt people, there is a higher standard of responsibility.

[Tedlark]

I know this has probably been covered by others here but where has "someone" sold a strategy where they promised this strategy would "beat the casinos?"

This same thing can be asked of multitudes of real estate professionals who sell "get rich quick beat the real estate market schemes" and by investment professionals who sell "get rich quick beat the stock market schemes" and by medical/ professionals who sell "miracle cure snake oil"

[FloridaPhil]

I wish to make some things perfectly clear as I don't wish to be
misunderstood.  Writing books telling people how to keep more of their
money, play more hands with their money or take better advantage of
comps is a good thing.  I buy these books and they have been very
beneficial.  My problem is the implied guarantee that playing positive
video poker games perfectly with an unlimited bankroll is profitable. 
This is untrue for many reasons.   Out of the thousands if not hundreds
of thousands of players who try this strategy, only a tiny few make a
long term profit.  When the average player takes these
statements to a higher level by playing in the high limit room, it
compounds the damage.  If everyone who believed in this strategy played
quarters, I would have no problem with it.   When you talk of betting
tens thousands of dollars in an afternoon, it leads others to think they
aren't betting big enough.  That's when the damage is done.

[Tedlark]

Also, the same thing can be asked of "religious" people selling a "guaranteed get into heaven scheme", I could go on but why beat a dead horse.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=Tedlark]This same thing can be asked of multitudes of real estate professionals
who sell "get rich quick beat the real estate market schemes" and by
investment professionals who sell "get rich quick beat the stock market
schemes" and by medical/ professionals who sell "miracle cure snake oil" Also, the same thing can be asked of "religious" people selling a
"guaranteed get into heaven scheme", I could go on but why beat a dead
horse.[/quote]Or, selling a book promoting a strategy that can beat the casinos when the person writing the book knows few people can make it work.  Personally, I can give this a pass.  It's when you move your book into the high limit room that I have a problem.What does it add to your book to tell someone you play $25 a hand video poker?   The fact that you do does not add anything to your strategy.  All it does is make players think they have to bet big to win.  99% or more fail and the damage is done.This is like Russian Roulette with a video poker machine.   The gun holds 6 shots.  Five are empty and one is loaded.   The odds are 5 to 1 on your side.   You pull the trigger and you blow your brains out.  I guess you weren't intelligent enough.