Cheap Advantage Play?

[FloridaPhil]

What is the definition of a positive VP game? This is how I understand it. It's a game where the odds plus the comps and incentives push the expected return over 100%. For example, the max coin 9/6 Jacks or Better odds with perfect play are 99.554%. If the combination of comps and incentives are more than .0446%, the game is positive. According to Advantage Play Strategy, at 100% you could play forever and not lose money. Anything over 100% is profit. If the combination is less than 100%, the game is negative and you lose money long term.

If the game is negative, there is a cost to play that game. The amount of the cost varies with the "coin in". A player who plays VP with a combined 99% return will lose more money playing dollars than quarters.

I believe I have this right so far. If not, please feel free to correct me.

Is it possible to play cheap and gain an advantage on the house? Suppose you play single coin quarter 9/6 Jacks or Better? You are now playing a 98.373% game. To make this game positive, you must find 1.627% worth of comps and incentives to make the game a 100% game. Anything over that is profit.

1.627% of what? Your "coin in". Playing single coin quarters, your "coin in" is very small. This means your comps and incentives are small as well. At 500 hands an hour, your "coin in" is $125 an hour. 1.627% of $125 is $2.03. Can you find $2.03 an hour worth of comps in a casino? The air conditioning, heating and music has got to be worth something? You are playing an expensive game that cost the casino money to buy and maintain. If you get a free soft drink or coffee each hour, you could break even on paper.

What if your casino is like mine and offers an hourly open drawing for free play. What if you win one of those drawings? When you play small, you don't need much in the way of comps and incentives to make money.

If you play max coin 9/6 Jacks at the $5 level, your "coin in" jumps to $12,500 an hour. If the combined return of that game is not positive, you have a lot of ground to make up. If you make errors, you could easily be playing with a 1% house edge. 1% of $12,500 is $125. Can you find $125 an hour in comps? Possibly, but not likely.

I am not trying to convince anyone here to play single coin quarters. I am showing you that playing with an advantage is not limited to high rollers. It's gets easier the smaller you play, not harder.

[Carcounter]

Best games where I play (Borgata) are 9/6 JOB multi strikes at 99.75% and Super Double Bonus at 99.69%. With a .125% cash back and .250 slot dollar give back (I think these numbers are right) they are slightly positive and I will continue to play them. When they are gone, I'll have to decide if the straight 9/6 JOB's are worth it.

[FloridaPhil]

Best games where I play (Borgata) are 9/6 JOB multi strikes at 99.75% and Super Double Bonus at 99.69%. With a .125% cash back and .250 slot dollar give back (I think these numbers are right) they are slightly positive and I will continue to play them. When they are gone, I'll have to decide if the straight 9/6 JOB's are worth it.

Advantage play is where you find it. The last time we were at Red Rock in Vegas, we played full pay quarter games with free rooms thrown in. In many of the casinos around the country, neutral or positive VP games are only available if you play for practically nothing.

The problem with playing that small is it removes the fun of playing VP for many players. The anticipation of a jackpot is a big part of that fun. However, you could be paying much more for your jackpots than they are worth. This is the reason I make these posts. So many players play VP for the jackpots and don't think about the cost until they look at their bank statement. Obviously many of us can afford to pay to play. The question is "How much is hitting a jackpot worth to you?"

[Tedlark]

Phil, if you keep making posts here like this, then: you won't have anything for your book as it'll all be published here...

KIDDING, kidding. Trying to throw in some Friday humor just like Eduardo does and I'm doing my best not to be overly florid.

[wildman49]

I still think while everything the casino gives you in a "comp" say like food vouchers. We have to eat to live, well some live to eat So how much is a food voucher worth? To some nothing but you earned it playing the machines. If your casino is like mine everything is over priced by 50% or more. I give a $50 food voucher $20 in real value.

So if your playing 99% games or less there is still value in things other then free play one should consider
before just playing single coin to save a tiny bit. VP is and has a lot of entertainment value. Free rooms, show tickets do have value just not face value one can feel they are getting something for there loses.

[FloridaPhil]

Phil, if you keep making posts here like this, then: you won't have anything for your book as it'll all be published here...

KIDDING, kidding. Trying to throw in some Friday humor just like Eduardo does and I'm doing my best not to be overly florid.

Humor is good. I don't think anyone would buy a book on how to lose less gambling. No one wants to admit they lose, not even to themselves.

[FloridaPhil]

So if your playing 99% games or less there is still value in things other then free play one should consider before just playing single coin to save a tiny bit. VP is and has a lot of entertainment value. Free rooms, show tickets do have value just not face value one can feel they are getting something for there loses.

I play max coins when the cost is worth the investment. My wife and I love Biloxi. The VP odds stink, but they let us stay free at one of the most beautiful resorts on the Gulf Coast. If you have never walked through the Beau Rivage lobby at Christmas time, you have missed an experience. The trick there is to play just enough so they invite you back but not enough to overpay. We used to go there and play VP for 7-8 hours a day and get killed. We set limits now and leave when we reach them. If we win, we stay. So far, they keep inviting us back. We are not trying to make money. We are playing for a nice vacation.

Profit comes in many forms. It can be food, drinks, free play, rooms, merchandise or just a nice time. The key is not to pay more than your "free" stuff is worth.

[case]

It is VERY hard to play VP at any level and make a living off of it in 2018. This is not news as most people understand this and except it if they want to play VP.

This is why many people play for the kind of comps that Wildman mentioned. My wife and I go to Vegas (and many other areas) and get all free food, rooms and just pay our airfare. Other times we drive and and go where ever our offers take us. We often lose but sometimes win. Our free food comes mostly from accumulated comps on our coin in. We only use these comps for food and not free play. That way we have enough each trip so food cost us nothing.

Phil, most people that play VP understand the risk and cost. You do not give them enough credit. You make it sound like most VP players think they will get rich playing this game. You feel it is your job to educate them. The reason most people don't play one coin is they want that "chance" to hit a royal at max coin. They know they will likely lose but really do enjoy the game and the added comps that come with it.

Loyalty to a casino or casino group also gives you some free play and invites to tournaments, gifts and food comps. There is more to the game than always coming home a winner. Everyone wants to win but most understand it does not always work that way.

If you are serious about the game, play in advantage situations you expect to win over long term. This gets harder every year. However if you are smart enough to know when you have an advantage you usually know how to play perfectly. Does that mean you wont make mistakes....of course not. But most mistakes will be very minor with little effect on the odds.

For us (wife and I) the game gives us a lifestyle in retirement we love. Free hotel rooms across the country and usually very nice rooms at that. Throw in food, shows and great swimming pools and we get our moneys worth. A typical year will see us spend just over 100 days on the road.

This winter we will spend two months in Florida and will probably not gamble as we won't be near many casinos. However we will take a week driving down and will stay free at Total reward casinos in Southern Indiana, Tunica and Biloxi before driving into Florida. In Florida we will have to pay for everything for our two month stay.

So play whatever way you want at whatever your bankroll allows. If you go home at night depressed it is time to re-evaluate what you are doing. Gambling is not for everyone.

[Tedlark]

Phil writes: "The problem with playing that small is it removes the fun of playing VP for many players. The anticipation of a jackpot is a big part of that fun."

I would think that it would be more of a downside instead of a problem with playing "that small" and I would most assuredly say that people who do play small already KNOW that they are taking the option of a jackpot out of play by deciding to play small and they then: willingly accept that downside.

If a player hits a royal while playing single coin they win a very meager amount, $62.50 (at the quarter level) and that would barely pay for a moderate dinner for two while hitting a $1,000.00 royal would be an amount that could make a bigger impact on that person. It could pay their cell phone bill for an entire year, or pay for new tires on their car, or pay for a nice little piece of jewelry, you get the picture.

I do credit Phil though for cloaking his opening post from it's true purpose of, once again: slamming $5.00 play. This is only my opinion. With what I play (and Phil obviously knows I play multi-line games exclusively) I am surprised that he has not mentioned multi-line play. Quarter play for my favorite 10 hand machines run $12.50 a deal ($25.00 a deal for DreamCard), $25.00 a deal for half dollar play, and $50.00 for when I'm feeling extra frisky at the dollar level.

Phil, while I do give applaud you for the effort you put into writing these posts you are not writing anything new. The last several forum discussions that you have started in the recreational play forum have all had this same theme and when this happens, your message loses its point.

For the record: when I wrote of hitting a $1,000.00 jackpot instead of $62.50 I was in no way advocating that people play above their means. As I have written many times before, I will always be an advocate of a person playing max coin in at a denomination level they can comfortably play at.

[FloridaPhil]

My motives are being misinterpreted.

I am not against playing video poker as a hobby or for entertainment. My wife and I totally enjoy our times at the casino and the great vacations we take playing VP. We play for comps as much as anyone and I expect we play as much or more VP than any other non professional member of this forum. However, Olds442jetaway has us beat by a mile.

I am not against the concept of benefiting from Advantage Play. The only thing I object to is when someone makes it out to be infallible in the long term.

So who or what is the target of my objections? Advantage play is not infallible for all the reasons I have stated many times before. Players should know the casino is going to win one way or the other, either by chance, increasing their edge or by changing the rules.

How big you bet is a personal choice. Betting bigger because you believe you can't lose is dangerous. Video poker is gambling. Gambling is risk taking. There is a good possibility that you will do everything exactly right and still lose. That is what I believe.

For this reason and because most of my friends are seniors, I discuss playing VP with less risk. I am the only one on this forum who has ever done this. I consider this useful information for those who wish to use it.